Famicom World

Dear All

I have learnt how to make circuit boards and everything with eagle and want to reproduce the Famicom PCB..  Please let me know if you are interested to buy a brand new high quality PCB for the same! If there is less interest then I will not start this project..

This will not be a drop in replacement for the Famicom but a new Pcb with sockets for cpu and ppu. It will be a brand new Pcb smaller in size but working with Hi Def NES and NESRGB and fully compatible!

It will be a 2Oz copper and gold plated high quality PCB if all goes well.

-Rama

Something I would be very interested in, but
#1) the price for me is too much
#2) have you enough experience in components placement/ choosing the best parts to make a "really good" design? Drawing is not everything and when you finish, there will be many voices speaking what could you have done better...

Just an idea:
It will be awesome if you will consider to re-draw the original board and consider selling bare boards only for self soldering of components. Of course making it with SMD parts -again- will not be interesting (needs more soldering skills)...Reproducing a board like CPU-GPM-02(f) will be easily solderable even without extra soldering skills, that's what I'm after!
Of course the power / RF part of the board should be custom ;)  AND also the AV mod...(another part for discussion).
A bare board, must not be gold plated to ensure reasonable price, will be awesome and I'm all in. If you draw it, pcb making websites like itead.cc can make such board for (much) less than $20/piece.
Hell now I'm considering donating you cash for your work, and releasing the gerbers(pcb drawings) public!

Thank you for the response jpx72! I agree to everything you said! we want the best design! I will request all to send in their ideas here! And I will take a note! We can even make partially soldered with the SMD and stuff... and you can put in your parts separately!

-Rama

Gold plating? There are no connectors nor high frequency so no point of using that.

I was going to make famicom's PCB with the following points:
* main use is to put in in some existing fami-clone shell (to reuse it if the original PCB is broken),
* put header for connecting another (existing) PCB with joypad sockets & power/reset buttons. Hopefully, there are 3 standards (18 pin, 11 pin and 20 pin used only  in IQ502 rev 3),
* put 4 pin header for audio/video/+5V/GND to connect third PCB with power supply,
* use 62256 (or 6264) memories as RAM as they are more popular,
* if you could fit in 10cm x 10cm (which will be tricky), you could order it in most china companies for 12-15$ shipped for 10pcs.

Quote from: krzy on June 18, 2018, 05:21:42 pm
Gold plating? There are no connectors nor high frequency so no point of using that.

I was going to make famicom's PCB with the following points:
* main use is to put in in some existing fami-clone shell (to reuse it if the original PCB is broken),
* put header for connecting another (existing) PCB with joypad sockets & power/reset buttons. Hopefully, there are 3 standards (18 pin, 11 pin and 20 pin used only  in IQ502 rev 3),
* put 4 pin header for audio/video/+5V/GND to connect third PCB with power supply,
* use 62256 (or 6264) memories as RAM as they are more popular,
* if you could fit in 10cm x 10cm (which will be tricky), you could order it in most china companies for 12-15$ shipped for 10pcs.

This is a good start..  But can they ship assembled PCBs in 12 USD? I think this is too less.. I am thinking the below properties :

1. New technologies for RAM and power
2.Smd components for smaller footprint but spacious for both NESRGB and high Def NES.
3. 4 controller ports! With NES style port sockets
4. Multi AV sockets at the back for full rgb and composite and stereo audio knob.

Fully assembled max 100USD. Only put ppu and cpu and let it run!

-Rama

100 USD? Lol, when I made new famiclone PCB from scratch, fully assembled, with PCB etched and drilled in home, I sold it for ~25 USD :D

http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9560129100_1496602879.jpg
http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9368560300_1496602881.jpg
http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2470718000_1496602883.jpg
http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6660570700_1496602885.jpg
http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7760701000_1496602887.jpg
http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8572866300_1496602889.jpg

Short estimation:
CPU+PPU 3$,
WRAM + VRAM: 2$,
74139+2x74368+74273: 2$
60 pin socket: 2$,
2xDB9+db15 sockets: 1$,
7805: 0.25$
DC + audio + video RCA sockets  1$
reset + power switchs: 0.5$
resistors/capacitors + transistors + crystal + DIL sockets: 2$,

PCB 200mm x 100mm:  from PCB way you can order 20 pieces for 103$ shipped, so lets asume 5$/piece

Cost is ~20$ for pieces, soldering - if you project the pcb whe wise way (*), shouldn't take more than 20 minutes, so I dont know how u charge your work, but i wouldn't count more than 20$

Time to project the PCB: it might  take around 20-40 hours, depending on skills, but this cost should be distributet over the set.

(*) - SMD parts are better - you don't have to waste time for bending & clipping legs. Also, have in ming that if you use many different values for resistors & capacitors, lot of time is wasted for taking them from the parts bin.
For example, the crystal-based clock generator has a lot of different values for caps & resistors, or the audio mixing circuit.

I wouldnt count for the assembled PCB more than 50$.

Wow thats great! I didn't know how much it will cost hence I said 100 USD! I think u have already achieved what I want to do so ill not redo this..

-Rama

krzy, wow nice work!  :o
I was thinking of making famicom/NES PCB for Atari Jaguar shell :) I have one not working Jaguar lying around :P and I just love the design of it's shell, and the  famicom is my favorite system l  :-[

We printed exact replica of the Famicom PCB back in the day, and we got it down to a production price around what Krzy is boiling it down to. Not into that business anymore (no equipment and moved back home to JP) but basically yeah, he is totally right and Krzy is a very knowleadgeable person when it comes to this.

When it comes to RGB out it can be implemented as well. I remember we experimented with an FPGA PPU to implement RGB and got it up and running, but that was more of experimental board with UMD chips and such thing instead of genuine from Nintendo but I would say is totally possible but cannot just slam an RGB connector directly to the Famicom PCB, hence why need to use some type of additional hardware for RGB out.

If I would be using the prefabricated PCB in factory then yeah, price around 35$ for soldered PCB with components could be OK.

You shouldn't forget about the issue with shell. If you want to use existing shell, you should know its dimension and places where to drill mounting holes in PCB as well as where to put connectors/button.

But more universal approach is as I said, pre use existing PCBs with connectors.

I really don't know if putting 4 joypad ports is reasonable. As I remember, there are only a few games using it but there is still  incompability between Famicom's 4 joypad and NES four score (and if you would make it compatible with NES four score, you will probably need extra chip)

If you use UA6528 + UA6527 then you will get NTSC version, 100% compatible with Famicom.
If you use UA6538 + UA6527P then you will get PAL (dendy) version but not 100% compatible with PAL NES (some games wont work or will have shaking image). Also, chips made before 30th week of 1990 have some issues.

I don't have much experience with RGB but you can't get RGB video without :
1. using PlayChoice's PPU
or
2. using PPU implementation on FPGA
or
3. making some addon board to existing PPU like this one: https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/ If I think correctly, it sniffes the CPU-PPU bus and sniffes what data PPU outputs on pins 14-16 and basing on it, it generates RGB value for each pixel that PPU renders. It is bases on EPM240 CPLS which is not expensive but still there is need to program it (author probably does not publish the firmware)



Some other consoles that I made:
https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/1307007200_1529513638.jpg
https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7222706300_1529513639.jpg
https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/3751594600_1529513668.jpg
https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7281466900_1529513670.jpg

Ok I really didn't know about the prices! Hence I marked it max 100 USD..  But now from the comments I understand that its cheaper even when made in the factory.. I will check it out..

-Rama

Oh krzy! You are my god! :crazy: You already have a famicom board drawn! Would you share the gerbers? Or sell?

Ok after thinking a lot I have started building the schematics.. Cuz I cant help it and I love the Famicom.. It will not have 4 player support but will have expansion port..i Will send the final board to fab and let you guys know how it actually costs to get 1 high quality Famicom PCB made!

Wow reproduced Famicoms you make at home! This is great stuff!! ;D I'm interested!

Now if the CPUs and PPUs could be reproduced as well it would be perfect!

I would want a repro-Fami that can do everything a real Famicom can do, which means it would need the Famicom controller ports, or at least the microphone circuit in the second controller.

SMD wouldn't be very good for home soldering though would it? I don't think I can solder SMD with my tools anyway. Plus SMD has shorter life.

I imagine an ideal universal Famicom would have both Famicom and NES ports for controllers (including the unique lines for NES to make NES-exclusive accessories work), expansion ports and cartridge connectors, switchable CPUs and PPUs and switchable NTSC and PAL modes. There are many little differences between models though, like the NES connecting both CPU and PPU to RESET while Famicom only connects CPU to it.

yup.
i'd be all over that once it is available.
also, just a thought, something that only few people would want i guess, but the ability to switch between pal ppu, cpu+xtal, and ntsc chipset+xtal would be awesome.
again, that is probably not viable because of added size and cost, but something i would really love to see one day.

Actually the ntsc+pal idea is freaking awesome!!

I've aleard done all of that 3 years ago (PAL+NTSC, 72+60 pin, 9+15+NES connectors), but the cost of making that is really not worth effort. If you want PAL+NTSC switchable console, just find famiclone which has a solder jumper.

I remember when I made this PCB, it was winter (my workshop is on the attic, upper part of house, without heating). I spend ~80 minutes on drilling, it was -20*C and I went ill.


(http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5647031600_1450109572_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5647031600_1450109572.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2793596500_1450109574_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2793596500_1450109574.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4938199400_1450109577_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4938199400_1450109577.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6969696300_1450109579_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6969696300_1450109579.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8249200600_1450109582_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8249200600_1450109582.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/1585470700_1450109584_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/1585470700_1450109584.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7524563400_1450109587_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7524563400_1450109587.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8274846400_1463218306_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8274846400_1463218306.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7074437700_1463218308_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7074437700_1463218308.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4140621700_1463218310_thumb.jpg) (http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4140621700_1463218310.jpg)

Except for the PAL CPU and PPU, I don't think 72 pin cartridge connector and crystals are that expensive though?
It definitely increases the work load though (especially soldering an extra cartridge connector). NTSC<>PAL switching on an accurate clone is something I'd also like to see one day.

One way to reproduce the CPU and PPU would be to use programmable logic. That way they could be changed to any version that is implemented (old, new, NTSC, PAL, Arcade/Titler RGB PPU etc) on the fly.

There are lots of test program ROMs here (https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Emulator_tests) although they are probably mostly made for emulators. I might also be able to whip something together as well, if anything specific is needed.

Hi guys!

I am nearly 90% done! Just a few tests here and there.. And we will have a high quality refurb soon!
-Rama

Excited!! ;D

Ok just to post I have made the the hvc-cpu-05 version... :)

Quote from: aarkay14 on June 27, 2018, 01:21:15 am
Ok just to post I have made the the hvc-cpu-05 version... :)

Sounds great! Any improvement from original PCB? Or you made a replica? ^^ Is of course great news for FC-Community of enthusiast and I support anyone willing to keep the FC going strong!!!

Quote from: Retrospectives on June 27, 2018, 01:47:28 am

Quote from: aarkay14 on June 27, 2018, 01:21:15 am
Ok just to post I have made the the hvc-cpu-05 version... :)

Sounds great! Any improvement from original PCB? Or you made a replica? ^^ Is of course great news for FC-Community of enthusiast and I support anyone willing to keep the FC going strong!!!

Thank you for the support.. I made an exact replica.. I am now working on using newer parts..  will show my progress soon and ask the community for opinions...

-Rama

It is great to learn from the prior boards, but ultimately what most people would want is a board that can output jailbar-free composite video, something that the HVC-CPU-05 does not offer.  Additionally I would expect full compatibility with Famicom expansion port peripherals and the Controller II microphone.

Yeah HVC-CPU-05 may be a good start as it should contain all the functionality we associate with the Famicom, including microphone and 15-pin expansion port, but there are a great number of things that can be improved to create the ultimate Famirepro.

Quote from: P on June 29, 2018, 08:46:05 pm
Yeah HVC-CPU-05 may be a good start as it should contain all the functionality we associate with the Famicom, including microphone and 15-pin expansion port, but there are a great number of things that can be improved to create the ultimate Famirepro.

I agree ! 

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Post Merge: June 29, 2018, 11:09:52 pm

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Quote from: Great Hierophant on June 29, 2018, 06:20:09 pm
It is great to learn from the prior boards, but ultimately what most people would want is a board that can output jailbar-free composite video, something that the HVC-CPU-05 does not offer.  Additionally I would expect full compatibility with Famicom expansion port peripherals and the Controller II microphone.

Umm.. I was thinking that instead of relying on the inbuilt Video Output we should use the video output from an NESRGB mod! that is much much cleaner and awesome! But I will surely look into it!

NESRGB isn't perfect and has compatibility problems. Besides many people don't want RGB on Famicom.

Quote from: P on June 30, 2018, 05:43:46 am
NESRGB isn't perfect and has compatibility problems. Besides many people don't want RGB on Famicom.

Indeed. Personally I'd like to see a low-level replica with just the most basic additional features just to hold down costs and to being able to fit it inside a FC shell without any major modifications. The point is to make it as "clean" as possible, but at the same time be able to provide something that the original did not, which is why RGB and those type of solutions tend to rush the prices, not to speak about the actual PCB layout, trying to fit it into a FC which already is more than cramped as it already is.

With that said, is a matter of preferences. Already there exist so many different "HD Solutions" that it for me personally has come to a point whereas people seems to think that HD-Quality is "pure" and "how it is supposed to look like", but that cannot be further away from truth. In fact, the way it was supposed to look was to play it on a normal CRT TV. Not PVM Monitor. Not Projector. Not HDMI. Not RGB. But a pure simple and easygoing CRT consumer availavle Television.

Of course people have their preferences, but for people want HD/RGB or other alternatives, there already exist those alternatives. But to make a low-level replica to a cost friendly price is indeed attractive to people who like to play on "original" hardware so to speak.

Just my thoughts.

Quote from: P on June 30, 2018, 05:43:46 am
NESRGB isn't perfect and has compatibility problems. Besides many people don't want RGB on Famicom.

Oh Thats news to me! Can you tell me about the compatibility issues? :(


OK! I was able to work on this over the weekend and fit the board in a 8x10 cm board as below:

(https://s8.postimg.cc/o2h6rvflh/qqq.png)

Now this is NOT the final product or the final routing but I see that this size makes the lines way too dense! I might be able to reduce space used by using newer smaller parts and also avoid the Jailbar thing but I don't have much idea about them so I would like to ask the community for help. I am ready to hand out this schematics to a person who knows the in and out of the Famicom and can use this schematic to provide me back the perfect working Jailbar free Famicom schematics in Eagle CAD. As I spent some effort on this hence it is fair that I do not give out my work for free of cost and I will charge 60USD for the schematics. So it means the other person and I will be kinda the owners of the final schematics and the board diagram. He can simplify or proof read the schematics as well.. I don't want to do it alone since we have so many great minds in the community!

Please let me know your opinions on this and kindly PM me those who are interested.

-Rama

Really? Why so many vias - looks like it come from autorouter. You also risk chance that something might go wrong in the factory.

Here is proper way of placing the component to minimize vias and complexity - if you move CPU/PPU and RAMS closer to the connector, you should fit in 10x10.
To minimize jailbars, put video amplify circuit as close as possible to PPU leg 11 and route its output to the RCA connector as far as possible from other signals (be advised that it also applies to the second layer)

(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8702118700_1530447198_thumb.jpeg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8702118700_1530447198.png)

Quote from: krzy on July 01, 2018, 05:13:23 am
Really? Why so many vias - looks like it come from autorouter. You also risk chance that something might go wrong in the factory.

Here is proper way of placing the component to minimize vias and complexity - if you move CPU/PPU and RAMS closer to the connector, you should fit in 10x10.
To minimize jailbars, put video amplify circuit as close as possible to PPU leg 11 and route its output to the RCA connector as far as possible from other signals (be advised that it also applies to the second layer)

(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8702118700_1530447198_thumb.jpeg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8702118700_1530447198.png)

Great! Thank you! I will try this and let you know! And yes it was autorouter! Lol

-Rama

Quote from: Retrospectives on June 30, 2018, 10:32:01 am
there exist so many different "HD Solutions" that it for me personally has come to a point whereas people seems to think that HD-Quality is "pure" and "how it is supposed to look like", but that cannot be further away from truth. In fact, the way it was supposed to look was to play it on a normal CRT TV. Not PVM Monitor. Not Projector. Not HDMI. Not RGB. But a pure simple and easygoing CRT consumer availavle Television.

I understand what you are saying, but I also understand there's a need for HD output. The TV sets that composite was made for aren't produced anymore and they are gradually disappearing, there is a need for more future-proof solutions.

Quote from: aarkay14 on July 01, 2018, 12:44:38 am

Quote from: P on June 30, 2018, 05:43:46 am
NESRGB isn't perfect and has compatibility problems. Besides many people don't want RGB on Famicom.

Oh Thats news to me! Can you tell me about the compatibility issues? :(

There were talk about certain games (Duck Maze, Orb 3D, Micromachines, Linus Spacehead, Morskoy Boy among others) not wokring properly with NESRGB. Probably these are (mostly unlicensed) games that uses unorthodox methods to get out colors which somehow bypasses the NESRGB's operation. I did some googling and it sounds like the known problem games have been fixed though. The point still stands that NESRGB modifies the way the Famicom works which is potential compatibility problems, something no game artist want. And since there are people that are more interested in jailbar-free composite video and others that rather want RGB both doors are best left open.

Quote from: crazyjesse on July 01, 2018, 09:36:36 pm
Yeah, I can definitely say that I want composite out, with the option to also have RGB out. If I had to choose, I'd probably take the native composite rather than some jerry-rigged RGB only.

Same here. RGB solution is already existing out there and to make it compatible with the original housing of the FC is a very important aspect for me, which put it very difficult position. Even with sockets is very hard to cramp in an original HVC-PCB into the Famicom shell, so composite would probably be the best way to go as far as the possibilities goes when it come to use it in a original Famicom.

Awesome. I know you said having the original famicom housing be compatible is important to you but I do believe I would make the controller ports come out the front which the original famicom design was obviously shooting for as well with the ports on the front of the board anyways. If designing a modern board I think I'd go famicom 2 route and have NES style ports designed directly on the board unless you want to keep the controller 2 microphone components. Composite video out and NES ports on front would be the most popular I would think. Of course doing this would basically be copying the famicom 2 anyways so I guess I'm just mostly tossing some thoughts out there that I've had about the original famicom. Another thing, I think it would be awesome if someone made a square button controller for the famicom that didn't have the rubber buttons but plastic which I've been seeing in some of the wireless nes classic designed aftermarket controllers. The square buttons would have worked fine like that I believe but surprisingly no one has made one wired for the original famicom or NES as of yet that I know of at least.

OK I would love to add the nes style controller ports but where can I find them new in market? Does anyone know?

Quote from: aarkay14 on July 07, 2018, 01:10:36 am
OK I would love to add the nes style controller ports but where can I find them new in market? Does anyone know?

Would maybe be able to source them down in China, perhaps. But then probably needing buy in bulk. I can do some research to see if can find something.

For me the correct audio with mic 2 is more important than NES style controller though, but I understand people have different prefer so I totally accept anything aftermarket anyway.

The microphone is a mandatory part of the 05 board, otherwise there was no reason use 05 board was it?
As long as the microphone port is accessible somehow I think NES controller ports is a good idea, NES controllers are easier to find loose, as (internal) Famicom controllers are sold as spare parts instead of as accessories. For the microphone, you could try a standard 3.5 mm phone connector, like on the Analogue NT mini, so people can easily connect their own microphone instead of the unreliable one in the con II. If you connect all pins (including D3 and D4) on both controllers it is already an upgrade from Famicoms and AV Famicoms as it would allow things like NES Zappers and Vaus controllers (in both ports to boot, which is required by some unlicensed games). I don't know if this is possible on the 05 board though or if the NES has extra circuitry to allow this?

For a start I would just source the ports from extension cords, they should be cheap and easy to find. Also you may want to make sure the space between the ports are like on the NES for Fourscore compatibility.

Quote from: Nesmaniac on July 06, 2018, 02:26:23 pm
a square button controller for the famicom that didn't have the rubber buttons but plastic which I've been seeing in some of the wireless nes classic designed aftermarket controllers. The square buttons would have worked fine like that I believe but surprisingly no one has made one wired for the original famicom or NES as of yet that I know of at least.

I don't think this is very surprising. I don't see any advantages of square buttons, only disadvantages (the same reasons why manholes are round).

Quote from: P on July 07, 2018, 04:17:31 am
The microphone is a mandatory part of the 05 board, otherwise there was no reason use 05 board was it?
As long as the microphone port is accessible somehow I think NES controller ports is a good idea, NES controllers are easier to find loose, as (internal) Famicom controllers are sold as spare parts instead of as accessories. For the microphone, you could try a standard 3.5 mm phone connector, like on the Analogue NT mini, so people can easily connect their own microphone instead of the unreliable one in the con II. If you connect all pins (including D3 and D4) on both controllers it is already an upgrade from Famicoms and AV Famicoms as it would allow things like NES Zappers and Vaus controllers (in both ports to boot, which is required by some unlicensed games). I don't know if this is possible on the 05 board though or if the NES has extra circuitry to allow this?

For a start I would just source the ports from extension cords, they should be cheap and easy to find. Also you may want to make sure the space between the ports are like on the NES for Fourscore compatibility.

Quote from: Nesmaniac on July 06, 2018, 02:26:23 pm
a square button controller for the famicom that didn't have the rubber buttons but plastic which I've been seeing in some of the wireless nes classic designed aftermarket controllers. The square buttons would have worked fine like that I believe but surprisingly no one has made one wired for the original famicom or NES as of yet that I know of at least.

I don't think this is very surprising. I don't see any advantages of square buttons, only disadvantages (the same reasons why manholes are round).

Totally agree. Microphone input is a must (for me but maybe not for majority), but at same time I do not want seeing some type of "Frankenstein Monster" that uses too many feature rather than being a cheap alternative for future needs. I remember we sold this PCB with RGB out, 4-joypad input (5 if calculating into the extension), PAL/NTSC and basically everything could be packed into a PCB. Never I felt it was genuine at any way though  :-[ But was interesting project from technical standpoint to see how far could push the limits.

Square button. I own Korean Samsung Aladdin Boy and that one also uses square button, but these are in plastic. I can say these square button start to jam after a bit wear. Is ok if using some type of non-toxic lubricant but I never think is a good way to play. I not play this system but have in collection, but whenever playing Mark III/Master system I just use MD Controller because is much better than any other option, except maybe SG-2 (I import from UK but is totally compatible with JPN/KR/TW systems), but that D-Pad is very not even so MD is better. I see personally no advantage of square button in plastic.

Thank you all for the great responses! I went through them all and did take a few points. I am sorry for the late reply but I was constantly reducing the size of my design and making it smaller and smaller. I am thinking to make this component by component so the Main PCB will be 1 component, a Power and Rear Video will be another component and so on.. Currently the raw design of the main PCB looks like below:

(https://s8.postimg.cc/sb0ibqk9h/nor.png)

I have managed to put it in a 5x9 PCB but it can also become much much smaller! I will be working further on this! I want to make it compatible with housing/shell like the Famicom and also clone consoles like the Dendy etc! This will be like a DIY building experience, people will mix and match the rear AV parts the front controller parts that they want and build their own machine.

I had a few things to ask to the community:

1. Analog Video Amp circuit: Is the design below the best design for the super clean analog video amp:
(http://s9.picofile.com/file/8281725026/console5.png)

2. I am using the 6116LA25SOG8 for the VRAM and PRGRAM, if someone has a clue please let me know if this will work fine?

Let me know your opinions!

-Rama

I wouldnt put serial nor parallel capacitor in the video signal. Parallel capacitor will act as low pass filter, making blurry video.
Serial capacitor might block low frequencies, needed for proper video synchronisation.

I remember one time when I was fixing old famiclone clonsole with non-standard video circuit with capacitors. In many games, TV was losing synchronisation randomly and there were horizonal bars of darker/lighter colours. Removing caps solved problems.

Quote from: krzy on July 20, 2018, 02:29:28 pm
I wouldnt put serial nor parallel capacitor in the video signal. Parallel capacitor will act as low pass filter, making blurry video.
Serial capacitor might block low frequencies, needed for proper video synchronisation.

I remember one time when I was fixing old famiclone clonsole with non-standard video circuit with capacitors. In many games, TV was losing synchronisation randomly and there were horizonal bars of darker/lighter colours. Removing caps solved problems.

I see.. So how do u intend we shud do it? We need the best quality picture possible! Also may I ask u about the width of the traces that u use in ur design? I want to set this right..

This is the circuit I always use when doing consoles/fixing existing ones with invalid video circuit:
https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8121403300_1513208184.png

It never failed, always give proper colour brightness (on chipped or glob top ones). Maybe except the  D99 or the second one famicom-like red-white chinese crap that you can buy nowadays.

With traces is not comething very crucial.
I prefer to use 0.05 inch grind for components / 0.025 alt grid for tracks (or 0.0125 when using SMD chips).
I prefer to make signal tracks 12 mils width because I can place them closest possible and the distance between them is comparable to their width, so Eagle won't complain (but that's because most of PCB I made are done in home and when Eagle won't complain about distances, it is sign there won't be any difficulties to make it in home)
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5771108800_1532213599_thumb.jpeg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5771108800_1532213599.png)

Power traces are 0.02 or 0.32 (when using 0.02, you can still put that track closest possible to signal track and the distance still will be OK)
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5973395300_1532214017_thumb.jpeg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5973395300_1532214017.png)

Sometimes, when you need to route two tracks between chip legs, my trick is to use 0.003125 grid and 0.01 mil track width just for the segment and it stil works perfectly.
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/1433300200_1532213891_thumb.jpeg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/1433300200_1532213891.png)

For vias, I use 0.8mm drill hole / 1.6mm via diameter

Given how many different opinions there are on this thread I think the modular approach is great! This way you can build 60-pin, 72-pin or dual compatible or however you want!

Personally I'd maybe want to try different CPUs and PPUs as well, but that could be solved by socketing those chips.


The AV-mod discussion is the cause of many flame wars in the past and no-one seems to know a good approach that works in all situations. I guess you might have to experiment a little before you get a good picture.

Dear All,

Thank you for the replies and support! after a lot of effort I have finally managed to get the result as below and fit the PCB in very compact form:

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjMmt50C/Famicom-Modular.png)

Also, I am thinking of making the PCB support I/O like below (for the modular approach):

(https://i.postimg.cc/QCHFxxCt/Modular.png)

I am not building the 72 Pin version because I think the cart is too big for such a micro famicom that I want to make.. :P also we can also use converters... I think none will mind..

Please let me know in case of any opinions.

-Rama

Yes Nes style sockets will be an option..  to.change module simply swipe out the card or desolder... I need to research more on the connectivity thingy but I thing it will be a plug and play kind of setup..

-Rama

Quote from: aarkay14 on November 24, 2018, 02:42:40 am
Dear All,

Thank you for the replies and support! after a lot of effort I have finally managed to get the result as below and fit the PCB in very compact form:

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjMmt50C/Famicom-Modular.png)

...

Should be .ok, with no jail bars. Add some capacitors on power rails and especially around video amplifier.
Ah, made power rails at least 0.05 or wider, where possible. We talking about MOS technology, which is more hungry on power, than modern CMOS. Keep in mind old carts too.

Thank you for the response. Ok I will add some capacitors on the power line just before going in to the amp circuit. Also the Power lines are 18mil, and the rest 8mil. I will be using 2Oz copper so I think it is ok! What do you think?

-Rama

So under 10x10cm? Very nice! Looking forward like crazy!!

Nicely done. I will be interested in few pcbs once you finish up.
This would be nice if you can make it a replacement board to replace the NOAC pcb in Famulator (i love the famulator shell design, very compact, to bad NOAC sucks and it has no RGB out)

Thank you for the support! I am near to order the pcbs and parts! Please let me know in case u have any ideas for me to add to the pcb! Or any other comments!

-Rama

---

Post Merge: December 13, 2018, 07:25:44 am

---

Quote from: FamicomFamily on December 12, 2018, 05:36:32 am
Nicely done. I will be interested in few pcbs once you finish up.
This would be nice if you can make it a replacement board to replace the NOAC pcb in Famulator (i love the famulator shell design, very compact, to bad NOAC sucks and it has no RGB out)

Umm I think it is too small fr this pcb!

---

Post Merge: December 13, 2018, 07:26:21 am

---

Quote from: jpx72 on November 25, 2018, 04:00:40 am
So under 10x10cm? Very nice! Looking forward like crazy!!

Thank you sir!

very excited about this thing,
and i will definitely be buying some of these,
quantity will depend on final price but i'm certainly getting me some of these.
great to see KRZY's contributions to this project.
he has drawn up some awesome boards for stuff i wanted to build, but could only do on protoboard, by hand,
but could not draw for production.
he designed the board for an external PCE RGB amp that i made this year, and i use that as RGB bypass in my SSDS3.

also, he drew up a board that connects a Famicom 60 pin edgeconnector to an NES 72 pin edge connector.
the files for this board are somewhere on the Tech board here,
and i've used it in a few Famicom-NES combo builds i did last year.
you could for instance take the 60 holes on this new famicom repro board, where you normally solder in the cartridge connector,
and connect that to the 60 pin connector on the fami-nes board , on short risers or headers, or with a bit of ribboncable (as short as possible ofcourse), or even on a plug-in kind of solution.

again, a normal 60-to-72 pin converter would also do the job,
but i really like plug-in modules on the Famicom,
and a semi-permanent dual-slot add-on is just really sexy.

Few suggestions:
1) Take into account that the size of A/V/DC PCB might vary and in worst case there might be just small gap (2cm or even less) between it and the main PCB so your design should not extend so much in the north direction of socket
Also there shouldn't be anything on left and rifht of the connector cause of eject mechanism
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250.jpg)

2) No idea how you're going to solder the cartridge socket to make it swappable, but if you plan to make any connector have in mind that the gap under the slot might be 1cm or even less in some consoles.
Also the pads should be larger not just tiny round holes)
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522.jpg)

I would just make place to solder regular 60pin connector cause it is most popular and if somebody wants 72 pin instead, that would be his problem (hopefully I only meet 72pins nes-clones in SP72 shells and those shells are really tall so there will be place to fit additional adapter)

3)There are few standards of how the pins between main PCB and the joypads PCB are arranged. I've found so far four kinds, yours uses 15 pins (lol)


WEIRD RINCO | GREY CONSOLE | Most consoles   | IQ 502 rev3
           | Terminator   | GLK2004         |
------------+--------------+-----------------+-------------
VCC (*)     | +5V 7805     | +5V 7805        | VCC
+5V 7805    | VCC          | VCC             | +5V 7805
$4016 D0    | $4017 CLK    | $4017 CLK       | $4016 D0
OUT0        | $4017 D4     | OUT2            | OUT0
OUT1        | OUT0         | OUT1            | $4016 CLK
OUT2        | $4017 D3     | $4017 D4        | $4016 D1
$4017 CLK   | $4016 CLK    | OUT0            | OUT1
GND         | $4017 D0     | $4017 D3        | OUT2
AUDIO       | $4016 D0     | $4016 D1        | GND
!IRQ        | !RESET       | $4017 D2        | AUDIO
$4017 D4    | GND          | $4016 CLK       | !IRQ
$4017 D3    | AUDIO (*)    | $4017 D1        | $4017 D4
$4017 D2    |              | $4017 D0        | $4017 D3
$4017 D1    |              | $4016 D0        | $4017 D2
$4017 D0    |              | !RESET          | $4017 D1
VCC         |              | GND             | $4017 D0
$4016 CLK   |              | !IRQ            | $4017 CLK
$4016 D1    |              | AUDIO           | AUDIO
!RESET      |              |                 | !RESET
GND (*)     |              |                 | GND

(*) this pin is sometimes non present or not connected to anything


4) Wouldnt't it be better to place 74373 closer (underneath?) to the PPU? Currently you route all signals to it and from it to RAM all over the board.
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641.png)

5) Consider putting crystal and all clock generating circuit as close the PPU as possible. If you use the original Famicom clock generator schematic then the CPU clock is buffered by transistor so the distance between clock & CPU might be longer.



But overally quite nice design ;)

Quote from: krzy on December 13, 2018, 04:34:56 pm
Few suggestions:
1) Take into account that the size of A/V/DC PCB might vary and in worst case there might be just small gap (2cm or even less) between it and the main PCB so your design should not extend so much in the north direction of socket
Also there shouldn't be anything on left and rifht of the connector cause of eject mechanism
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250.jpg)

2) No idea how you're going to solder the cartridge socket to make it swappable, but if you plan to make any connector have in mind that the gap under the slot might be 1cm or even less in some consoles.
Also the pads should be larger not just tiny round holes)
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522.jpg)

I would just make place to solder regular 60pin connector cause it is most popular and if somebody wants 72 pin instead, that would be his problem (hopefully I only meet 72pins nes-clones in SP72 shells and those shells are really tall so there will be place to fit additional adapter)

3)There are few standards of how the pins between main PCB and the joypads PCB are arranged. I've found so far four kinds, yours uses 15 pins (lol)

Code Select Expand


WEIRD RINCO | GREY CONSOLE | Most consoles   | IQ 502 rev3
           | Terminator   | GLK2004         |
------------+--------------+-----------------+-------------
VCC (*)     | +5V 7805     | +5V 7805        | VCC
+5V 7805    | VCC          | VCC             | +5V 7805
$4016 D0    | $4017 CLK    | $4017 CLK       | $4016 D0
OUT0        | $4017 D4     | OUT2            | OUT0
OUT1        | OUT0         | OUT1            | $4016 CLK
OUT2        | $4017 D3     | $4017 D4        | $4016 D1
$4017 CLK   | $4016 CLK    | OUT0            | OUT1
GND         | $4017 D0     | $4017 D3        | OUT2
AUDIO       | $4016 D0     | $4016 D1        | GND
!IRQ        | !RESET       | $4017 D2        | AUDIO
$4017 D4    | GND          | $4016 CLK       | !IRQ
$4017 D3    | AUDIO (*)    | $4017 D1        | $4017 D4
$4017 D2    |              | $4017 D0        | $4017 D3
$4017 D1    |              | $4016 D0        | $4017 D2
$4017 D0    |              | !RESET          | $4017 D1
VCC         |              | GND             | $4017 D0
$4016 CLK   |              | !IRQ            | $4017 CLK
$4016 D1    |              | AUDIO           | AUDIO
!RESET      |              |                 | !RESET
GND (*)     |              |                 | GND

(*) this pin is sometimes non present or not connected to anything


4) Wouldnt't it be better to place 74373 closer (underneath?) to the PPU? Currently you route all signals to it and from it to RAM all over the board.
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641.png)

5) Consider putting crystal and all clock generating circuit as close the PPU as possible. If you use the original Famicom clock generator schematic then the CPU clock is buffered by transistor so the distance between clock & CPU might be longer.



But overally quite nice design ;)

yes, i agree, in an original housing it would be oretty difficult to add another pcb for dual cartridge support.
that was not what i had in mind though, with a nice board this small i will make my own console housing, as small as possible.
and i also agree that 72 pin functionality, although nice, would not be cost-effective for a project like this, and everybody can work around that with their own solutions.

for original consoles a plug-in option might be something like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nC5MJnws/20181214-141235.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nC5MJnws)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Fg57tGN/20181214-141251.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8Fg57tGN)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xkGdMMjH/20181214-141305.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkGdMMjH)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBT5cn0Q/20181214-141314.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBT5cn0Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DJ1JB0Qk/20181214-160557.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJ1JB0Qk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jCQvjdpF/20181214-160606.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jCQvjdpF)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9rmbwHVF/20181214-160618.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rmbwHVF)




this also uses the PCB KRZY drew up, and in this case i cannibalized a Slotech cartridgeslot saver, which only adds a power led, and a headphone option that i never got to work anyway.
i had 2 so i don't feel bad about cutting one up for this.
but yeah, this is what i meant by semi permanent, plug-in dual slot module.

Quote from: krzy on December 13, 2018, 04:34:56 pm
Few suggestions:
1) Take into account that the size of A/V/DC PCB might vary and in worst case there might be just small gap (2cm or even less) between it and the main PCB so your design should not extend so much in the north direction of socket
Also there shouldn't be anything on left and rifht of the connector cause of eject mechanism
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/2992661200_1544747250.jpg)

2) No idea how you're going to solder the cartridge socket to make it swappable, but if you plan to make any connector have in mind that the gap under the slot might be 1cm or even less in some consoles.
Also the pads should be larger not just tiny round holes)
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9927641900_1544747517.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/8159409400_1544747522.jpg)

I would just make place to solder regular 60pin connector cause it is most popular and if somebody wants 72 pin instead, that would be his problem (hopefully I only meet 72pins nes-clones in SP72 shells and those shells are really tall so there will be place to fit additional adapter)

3)There are few standards of how the pins between main PCB and the joypads PCB are arranged. I've found so far four kinds, yours uses 15 pins (lol)

Code Select Expand


WEIRD RINCO | GREY CONSOLE | Most consoles   | IQ 502 rev3
           | Terminator   | GLK2004         |
------------+--------------+-----------------+-------------
VCC (*)     | +5V 7805     | +5V 7805        | VCC
+5V 7805    | VCC          | VCC             | +5V 7805
$4016 D0    | $4017 CLK    | $4017 CLK       | $4016 D0
OUT0        | $4017 D4     | OUT2            | OUT0
OUT1        | OUT0         | OUT1            | $4016 CLK
OUT2        | $4017 D3     | $4017 D4        | $4016 D1
$4017 CLK   | $4016 CLK    | OUT0            | OUT1
GND         | $4017 D0     | $4017 D3        | OUT2
AUDIO       | $4016 D0     | $4016 D1        | GND
!IRQ        | !RESET       | $4017 D2        | AUDIO
$4017 D4    | GND          | $4016 CLK       | !IRQ
$4017 D3    | AUDIO (*)    | $4017 D1        | $4017 D4
$4017 D2    |              | $4017 D0        | $4017 D3
$4017 D1    |              | $4016 D0        | $4017 D2
$4017 D0    |              | !RESET          | $4017 D1
VCC         |              | GND             | $4017 D0
$4016 CLK   |              | !IRQ            | $4017 CLK
$4016 D1    |              | AUDIO           | AUDIO
!RESET      |              |                 | !RESET
GND (*)     |              |                 | GND

(*) this pin is sometimes non present or not connected to anything


4) Wouldnt't it be better to place 74373 closer (underneath?) to the PPU? Currently you route all signals to it and from it to RAM all over the board.
(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/4984757100_1544748641.png)

5) Consider putting crystal and all clock generating circuit as close the PPU as possible. If you use the original Famicom clock generator schematic then the CPU clock is buffered by transistor so the distance between clock & CPU might be longer.



But overally quite nice design ;)

Heyy Sorry for the late reply, I made the design like this to use the NESRGB board.. Please let me know if this will not work?

Also, I got some prototype PCBs for the fit test, the results are as below:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kGcpr1/IMG-20190511-122310.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t2S1Tqz/IMG-20190511-122318.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yPsv7b7/IMG-20190511-122339.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQW3hr3Y/IMG-20190511-122531.jpg)

I am waiting for Kryz's response before moving any further, will this work?

Kind Regards,
Rama

that board is absolutely tiny!
again, i can't wait to get a couple of these to toy with.

You have to solder components to check if it works and the video quality has no interferences.
It is not a rocket science so if everything is done according to the schematic, it should work.

Another story is if it will fit to different shells. (Are you targeting only Famicom or also many Famiclones?)
For example - in my country one of the most popular Famiclones is IQ502 (the second one is MT777DX but it is made using chips so it is always fixable). Comparing your PCB to the interior of this console, I see that your PCB extends way too long in the left and right and also front direction of the slot so the ejecting mechanism might be obstructed. Also you chose 15 pin header for routing extension port. First, it should be rather 18 or 11 pin (cause it is popular in 95% consoles) and second - it should be placed rather in the center, otherwise the ribbon cable will need to be bent.

(https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7003845300_1557679741_thumb.jpg) (https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/7003845300_1557679741.png)

Thank you for the response Krzy!
I saw that the eject mechanism does not get hampered in iq-501 so i think it shud be ok .. also it is too difficult to make it more smaller than this I think..

Any further development on this project? I am very interested in one of those miniature discrete logic PCBs

I am guessing the project is dead?  :(

The project is not dead but in between.. the prototype PCBs are currently not booting...  Need to identify and fix some issue.. Patrick is working and I am supporting.. will update asap.

Oh dang, guess some of the wiring still needs to be worked on. Well I hope to see more as time goes on!

Quote from: CloudGamerX on January 24, 2020, 12:38:36 pmOh dang, guess some of the wiring still needs to be worked on. Well I hope to see more as time goes on!

Yes! I really dont know why it is happening, the symptoms are a grey screen. I think the CPU and RAM and not interfacing correctly. I used new type of SRAM ... I dont know if that is the cause. Need to check.. need time.

-Rama

A gray screen would suggest inactivity between the CPU and RAM. Perhaps check if one of your parts is faulty, and check the tracing for any incorrect routing.

Hi All,

After some investigation, I think I found the fault with my design. If someone can help me confirm this then it will be a real help!

I am using the 6116LA25SOG8 IC in my design. Its pinouts are like this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/V6CzG6k5/use-pin.png)

And the NES Wiki shows that 6116 type SRAM can be used, the pinout being like the below:

   
    +-----+--+-----+
 A7 |1    +--+  24| VCC
 A6 |2          23| A8
 A5 |3          22| A9
 A4 |4          21| /WE
 A3 |5          20| /OE
 A2 |6          19| A10
 A1 |7          18| /CE
 A0 |8          17| D7
 D0 |9          16| D6
 D1 |10          15| D5
 D2 |11          14| D4
GND |12          13| D3
    +--------------+


May I ask you to kindly confirm if this is really compatible chip?

-Rama

It seems to be pin compatible, but you're still having issues. Check to see if the RAM itself is faulty, or if a signal is left floating on your PCB.

If you have an arduino (or other microcontroller and programmer with some kind of UART monitor) it would be easy to test. Just hook it up and write all bytes, read them and output to the serial monitor. Then do it again with another fill value to make sure the whole RAM is ok.