Riki 8Bit Game Collection

[Ghegs]

https://www.gematsu.com/2024/08/city-connection-announces-riki-8bit-game-collection-for-switch

Having Kira Kira Star Night!, Astro Ninja Man DX, 8Bit Music Power, 8Bit Music Power Final, and 8Bit Music Power Encore available on Switch was not on my bingo card.

The physical version's already up for pre-order at Play-Asia. Probably not going to get it myself, but at least with this you don't have to worry about Columbus Circle's cart breaking your Famicom.

[fcgamer]

I'm not getting this either, but the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary

[Ghegs]

...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

[P]

I couldn't find any discussions regarding it on the Japanese part of internet, but I doubt it's being ignored. Japanese Famicom enthusiasts are probably aware of the problem and enraged about it as much as anyone else would rightly be.

[fcgamer]

...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this. At the end of the day, all of the companies mentioned above are unauthorized, and could be considered as bootlegs, homebrew, indie, whatever - it's all the same though, unauthorized products that can't (shouldn't) make a claim of 100% compatibility when it's not authorized and licensed by the console producer.

I remember even if the N64 era hearing horror stories of how something like the Game Shark could cause damage to your machine, and even once when I was young I got an N64 unauthorized controller from an Amway catalogue. When it eventually stopped working, I called the Nintendo hotline (I was young), and was told how the product was unlicensed, could possibly damage the system, etc etc.

So the idea that these large companies *are* expressing complete compatibility, I would say is potentially fraudulent in and of itself. Not sure how you can guarantee something just because you said so.

That being said, they could go nuts on assuring compatibility with their own machines, and rightfully so.

[fcgamer]

Furthermore, over the recent decades there's been a ton of Famiclones in Japan, even Hard Off has their own (if anyone here has one, I'm in the market for it). This suggests to me that for who knows what reason, there must be quite a demand for them, thus this "problem" is even further diminished if a large percentage of the population isn't even running it on a real hardware.

[fcgamer]

Oh and on retro USB's AVS, they released a whole series of games designed specifically for their machine, which happen to more or less be NES compatible. As mentioned above, it's foolish for any company to guarantee their games 100% compatibility on a machine they didn't design, when they're unauthorized and not working through official channels.

[Ghegs]

...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this.

Boggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

All western homebrew developers (and parties manufacturing the carts) work on getting their game working on a base NES safely and reliably. While obviously they don't want to advertise 100% compatibility for legal reasons, the system's technical details have been documented so thoroughly that achieving that compatibility in practice is not an impossible feat. And so they tend to state that their games have been tested on official systems, but they can't guarantee compatibility on clone systems.

When using the original system as a base, the games will work on clones just fine as long as the clones are close enough to the original. But if you use a clone system as target and adjust your game code and/or cartridge design accordingly, then you run the risk of having problems with original systems AND other clone systems.

With the way Columbus Circle operates, it's obvious they don't give a toss about original systems or the overall player base. With simple changes to the cart design they could've made their games safer to use with official Famicoms and other clones, but they'd rather fry your system so they can sell you their own clone system to make more money.

This is nothing but greed and disrespect for customers.

[fcgamer]

...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this.

Boggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

All western homebrew developers (and parties manufacturing the carts) work on getting their game working on a base NES safely and reliably. While obviously they don't want to advertise 100% compatibility for legal reasons, the system's technical details have been documented so thoroughly that achieving that compatibility in practice is not an impossible feat. And so they tend to state that their games have been tested on official systems, but they can't guarantee compatibility on clone systems.

When using the original system as a base, the games will work on clones just fine as long as the clones are close enough to the original. But if you use a clone system as target and adjust your game code and/or cartridge design accordingly, then you run the risk of having problems with original systems AND other clone systems.

With the way Columbus Circle operates, it's obvious they don't give a toss about original systems or the overall player base. With simple changes to the cart design they could've made their games safer to use with official Famicoms and other clones, but they'd rather fry your system so they can sell you their own clone system to make more money.

This is nothing but greed and disrespect for customers.

In today's world, it is irresponsible for developers not to test their games on multiple machines, period. There are instances where some games work properly on some Famicom revisions and not others, some NES revisions and not others, etc. and that even ignores the clones.

We've had this argument before, years ago, but the fact of the matter is that with their promo pictures, Columbus Circle was advertising their games alongside their clone machines. This suggests that the games were meant to be paired with their machines, which btw makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

At the end of the day, manufacturers of unauthorized products cannot guarantee 100% compatibility with "official" hardware. This has nothing to do with greed or disrespect for customers, and if there is an issue, then the folks developing those games should honestly just switch to a different publisher. That seems to be the obvious solution here.

Finally, to address one point, as it is something I take seriously as I don't want to have the reputation of myself or my products slandered:

Boggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

I have engineers involved with designing all of the products / PCBs that we use, and they are folks who are also heavily involved with Famicom / NES homebrew and/or indie scene. Furthermore, we are using the Famicom as the base machine.

I shouldn't even have to be discussing this here, and publicly, but I feel myself and my brand is being attacked, something that could have serious implications in the future for me, especially as this is now my day job, not just some sort of hobbyist project. Therefore, I kindly ask that you remove this quote from your post, before any reputational harm is done to my brand, especially when it isn't even true! Thanks.

[Ghegs]

...with their promo pictures, Columbus Circle was advertising their games alongside their clone machines. This suggests that the games were meant to be paired with their machines, which btw makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

The fact that they're marketing it as such doesn't make what happened okay. When you're developing for a retro system, it only makes sense to target the actual retro system, and not a particular clone version of it. Unless you're also in the business of manufacturing those clone systems, at which point the consumer should start to ask some questions regarding compatibility and safety. This also applies to the RetroUSB AVS situation. At least I haven't heard of those carts being dangerous to other NES consoles.

If you want to go into full conspiracy theory territory, Columbus Circle's decision to use the cartridges they did was conscious will the full knowledge that they'd be harmful to other Famicom systems, so that buyers' original Famicoms and other clone systems would eventually be rendered inoperable, and they'd end up buying CC's own clone system. The other option is that they were ignorant about the danger. And if the case was just an unfortunate accident, why didn't they change the cartridge design immediately? I think they used the same type of cartridges for multiple releases, over several years. I'm actually not sure if they've changed it? Was that confirmed anywhere?

I have engineers involved with designing all of the products / PCBs that we use, and they are folks who are also heavily involved with Famicom / NES homebrew and/or indie scene. Furthermore, we are using the Famicom as the base machine.

If the original Famicom is indeed the base machine you're aiming at (something Columbus Circle was most assuredly not doing), then that's a good thing and there's no issue there. But as someone who has bought quite a few NES and FC homebrews, and intends to keep doing so, I think I'm allowed to express my concerns and views. Therefore, I will not be removing the statement at this moment.

[fcgamer]

The fact that they're marketing it as such doesn't make what happened okay. When you're developing for a retro system, it only makes sense to target the actual retro system, and not a particular clone version of it. Unless you're also in the business of manufacturing those clone systems, at which point the consumer should start to ask some questions regarding compatibility and safety. This also applies to the RetroUSB AVS situation. At least I haven't heard of those carts being dangerous to other NES consoles.

Wait, so you are essentially saying it's wrong yet agreeing with me at the same time. As Columbus Circle was manufacturing clones, and then producing software to go with it.

I think it is fair for the consumer to ask questions, but we also need to see if the manufacturer is being honest or not with their marketing.

I just took a look now with the original 8Bit Music game from Columbus Circle. From what I can tell using a translator, the box lists the game as being "FC / FC compatible machines compatible". The manual states that the machine is guaranteed to work on their Famiclones, but that it might be incompatible with other FC compatible devices.

That being said, while it's obvious that they are marketing their games and clones together, they should have removed the initial "FC" part off of the box, as that would be misleading since there are potential compatibility problems. So they are in the wrong for doing that, though they would not be in the wrong for marketing their games for their clone machines alone.

If you want to go into full conspiracy theory territory, Columbus Circle's decision to use the cartridges they did was conscious will the full knowledge that they'd be harmful to other Famicom systems, so that buyers' original Famicoms and other clone systems would eventually be rendered inoperable, and they'd end up buying CC's own clone system. The other option is that they were ignorant about the danger. And if the case was just an unfortunate accident, why didn't they change the cartridge design immediately? I think they used the same type of cartridges for multiple releases, over several years. I'm actually not sure if they've changed it? Was that confirmed anywhere?

I think the likely answer is as follows: the machines were made in China, so were the cartridges. Everyone knows that for better or for worse, almost every modern clone is a cheap, inaccurate rendition of the original hardware, which is being fabricated in China. Likely they weren't aware of the issue, or had the popular "chabuduo" stance, essentially that it's "good enough" or "close enough", without knowing that there could be safety issues. They likely had the game running on their clones, which were using the modern "standard", then threw it into a normal Famicom and saw that it "worked", and thus called it a day, likely not even aware of the situation at hand.

As mentioned earlier, it would have been wiser for them to mention that the cartridge was designed solely for their machines, and that compatibilities may exist with other hardware. This would be the most transparent way of doing things. There's tons of reasons why people might not want to use original Famicom hardware, btw, for example it not having AV plugs. So while their decision wasn't a good one for purists (and as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have listed FC compatibility on the box), if they wanted to make cartridges solely for their machines, so be it, weird business choice but that's their decision to make.

If the original Famicom is indeed the base machine you're aiming at (something Columbus Circle was most assuredly not doing), then that's a good thing and there's no issue there. But as someone who has bought quite a few NES and FC homebrews, and intends to keep doing so, I think I'm allowed to express my concerns and views. Therefore, I will not be removing the statement at this moment.

The problem is that you made baseless assumptions about what I and my brand are doing, which is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand regarding Columbus Circle and their business. Look, I've known you for years and have no personal issue with you, but it's not right to be making such slanderous accusations about a person, his livelihood, and his products.

[Ghegs]

Wait, so you are essentially saying it's wrong yet agreeing with me at the same time. As Columbus Circle was manufacturing clones, and then producing software to go with it.

Sorry, I guess the meaning I had in my head didn't come across in text as I envisioned. I was trying to convey that in this situation, Columbus Circle's motive changed from creating a Famicom title, that the consumer would naturally assume to be the case, to creating a title that might work with a real Famicom. Like you said, the way they marketed it caused confusion.

Of course all of this drama is only because of the issues their carts caused with other systems. Had those issues not been present, nobody would care that they sell their own clone systems as well. But alas. I'm curious if they ever issued some explanation or even an apology to people that did end up with damaged systems due to their carts.

The problem is that you made baseless assumptions about what I and my brand are doing, which is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand regarding Columbus Circle and their business. Look, I've known you for years and have no personal issue with you, but it's not right to be making such slanderous accusations about a person, his livelihood, and his products.

I apologize if you feel that was a personal attack, it was not meant as such. But you came to Columbus Circle's defense when their problematic carts were mentioned, and you're someone about to publish FC homebrew carts. There was not an assumption made there, but a connection. As someone who collects and plays NES/FC homebrew games and talks about them online, I'm literally part of your target audience, so that was not an unreasonable concern to bring forth as a consumer and potential customer.

But since you've confirmed that you're using a real Famicom as a base for your project, and you've taken these potential hardware issues into account (I'm assuming, even if it wasn't explicitly stated), my worry on that front has been alleviated and I consider the matter settled. Maybe that's something you could use in your marketing efforts? Even if you can't 100% guarantee compatibility, stating that your game has been built for and tested with original systems would carry some weight.

I find it difficult to trust Columbus Circle at all, so even if they do have some neat releases I don't want to put any of them near my consoles. From my point of view, homebrew developers distancing themselves from Columbus Circle and their practices is a good thing.

[fcgamer]

Sorry, I guess the meaning I had in my head didn't come across in text as I envisioned. I was trying to convey that in this situation, Columbus Circle's motive changed from creating a Famicom title, that the consumer would naturally assume to be the case, to creating a title that might work with a real Famicom. Like you said, the way they marketed it caused confusion.

Yes, I have no idea why the Japanese developers got behind that outfit, but knowing what I do about Chinese culture, paired with all of the modern clones being the cheap 3.3 volts or whatever, I reckon they just ultimately manufactured the game for their clones, threw it in a real Famicom for five minutes, saw that it worked, and called it a day without even considering (or knowing) the ramifications. Who knows why they doubled down with the later releases.

Of course all of this drama is only because of the issues their carts caused with other systems. Had those issues not been present, nobody would care that they sell their own clone systems as well. But alas. I'm curious if they ever issued some explanation or even an apology to people that did end up with damaged systems due to their carts.

I'd be curious even as to how many damaged systems there were. I personally love chiptune and hope to convince some friends to compose and release some chiptune albums, but at the same time, I'd think that something like this would get limited use from the average user. As such, perhaps Columbus Circle just weighed the odds and figured that if the average person uses the cartridge twenty times, and damage generally occurs after 100 times, then just go with it, especially if they were selling their own clones as well. Who really knows, though it's definitely an interesting discussion.

I apologize if you feel that was a personal attack, it was not meant as such. But you came to Columbus Circle's defense when their problematic carts were mentioned, and you're someone about to publish FC homebrew carts. There was not an assumption made there, but a connection. As someone who collects and plays NES/FC homebrew games and talks about them online, I'm literally part of your target audience, so that was not an unreasonable concern to bring forth as a consumer and potential customer.

I've been publishing homebrew games since 2019.  

Just to show you where I am coming from, to offer another perspective:

Sachen made games and also had their own clones.
Bit Corp made games and also had their own clones.
Micro Genius made games and also had their own clones.
Aaronix (who actually had a license from Sega) made clones and also had made games.
Era Tech (a Hudson Soft subsidiary) made a clone and also released a game.
Retro USB made games and also made a clone.

If I thought about it harder, the list would likely go on. I guess what I am saying is, a lot of companies released clones and then also released software. Bit Corp is a notorious situation (IIRC something about their game Duck playing properly), but I reckon most of these companies made sure that the games they developed worked properly on their hardware, with other hardware compatibility being secondary. Consider these to be unlicensed or bootleg companies or whatever, but with the exception of Aaronix, they were all developing and releasing original software, and as such, I consider them to be some of the earliest of indie developers. If Columbus Circle didn't mention the singular "FC" on their box and only stated "For FC compatible machines" rather than "For FC / FC compatible machines", I think the sin would not have been as big, even though in this day and age I do think it is a silly business decision.

So that's where I am coming from. Maybe someday I might release a Famicom clone that has an 80 pin cartridge slot, and then runs cartridges with 80 pins. It's a stupid decision business wise, as you would be cutting off a lot of potential customers, but if it were marketed as such, don't see anything wrong with that. If you release clones and games, it is likely you are developing games to be used on your clones. The issue comes from when it is specifically marketed for a machine and then is incompatible with that machine. As I said, after seeing the box note, I do fault Columbus Circle partially, though I don't think it was intentional.

I find it difficult to trust Columbus Circle at all, so even if they do have some neat releases I don't want to put any of them near my consoles. From my point of view, homebrew developers distancing themselves from Columbus Circle and their practices is a good thing.

Like I said above, I feel the practice is much more common than what it appears at first blush. The key though is definitely transparency, and for someone like myself, I want to be marketing to as many people as possible hence using official hardware as the standard.

I accept your apology btw, sorry if I came across a bit heavy handed but you just need to keep in mind that I literally quit my day job to go fulltime and all in at this, so it really could affect me negatively if something gets spread around about the games I am publishing. If it is something true / something that I am doing, that's one thing, I'm fine with honest feedback and I am aware of some weak points and not saying I am the best; however, when it is something I am not even doing, then that is what gets me upset.

[P]

Making homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

The Famicom's patents has long ran out, there are no legal reasons you can't make a 100% compatible game. Even for NES, the lockout-chip has been legally cloned so there is nothing stopping you from making 100% compatible and legal NES games.

When making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version.

Colombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.
With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

[fcgamer]

Making homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

You do realize that licensed or not has absolutely nothing to do with quality, right? This is a huge misconception but it's 2024 now, so it's time we look at it from a factual standpoint.

Licensed just meant that the company paid a fee to Nintendo...that's it. Software such as Videomation was both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region. Or are you talking about the fabrication itself, which Nintendo would do? But if the latter, then the following paragraph doesn't make sense...

When making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version

You see the problem?