Retron5 detailed video review series

[satoshi_matrix]

No, I'm not in denial about this.

Yes, it would appear that Hyperkin used open source code without crediting the authors. It is my firm personal opinion that Hyperkin should have directly credited the authors of the open source emulators they used in about "about" page on the firmware, but it is also my opinion that the emulation cores are not being sold by Hyperkin therefore don't contribute to the cost of the hardware, and Hyperkin hasn't done anything legally wrong. I'm not a lawyer nor am I a partner "defending" Hyperkin. This is simply my personal opinion.

Hyperkin has yet to make a statement regarding this, there is no sign of even preliminary legal action whatsoever, and based on emails sent to distributors, Hyperkin is in fact increasing production of more units in time for the Holiday season.

Until something more concrete happens, the most anyone has are personal opinions about this.

All I seek to do is review the Retron5 and evaluate its current functionality, not pass moral judgement on the practice of using uncredited open source code.

[FamicomRetroGamer]

Hyperkin won't have to only worry about the emulator makers coming after them but also Nintendo and Sega, so if they do then Hyperkin's finished.

Maybe Nintendo will finally develop a new Metroid game after this lawsuit. LOL

[satoshi_matrix]

No no, Nintendo or Sega can't do anything. Emulators aren't illegal; only ROM files of commercially sold games under copyright. The Retron5 is in the legal clear as far as Nintendo/Sega goes.

Anyway, speaking of Sega, Part 6 is now live - Genesis, MegaDrive and also Master System if you use an adapter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7_HlDn2ic

[hvc01]

Dumping ROMs is illegal.

[Pikkon]

No, I'm not in denial about this.

Yes, it would appear that Hyperkin used open source code without crediting the authors. It is my firm personal opinion that Hyperkin should have directly credited the authors of the open source emulators they used in about "about" page on the firmware, but it is also my opinion that the emulation cores are not being sold by Hyperkin therefore don't contribute to the cost of the hardware, and Hyperkin hasn't done anything legally wrong. I'm not a lawyer nor am I a partner "defending" Hyperkin. This is simply my personal opinion.

Hyperkin has yet to make a statement regarding this, there is no sign of even preliminary legal action whatsoever, and based on emails sent to distributors, Hyperkin is in fact increasing production of more units in time for the Holiday season.

Until something more concrete happens, the most anyone has are personal opinions about this.

All I seek to do is review the Retron5 and evaluate its current functionality, not pass moral judgement on the practice of using uncredited open source code.

You do realize the reason you can play your roms is because of these freely available emulators.
Hyperken did not write any of the emulators which is fine but they are making money off of these authors and that's the problem.

[satoshi_matrix]

Dumping ROMs is illegal.

Dumping ROMs and disturbing them to others is illegal. Making personal and temporary back-ups is not. The Retron5 falls into the latter.

You do realize the reason you can play your roms is because of these freely available emulators.
Hyperken did not write any of the emulators which is fine but they are making money off of these authors and that's the problem.

The cores Retron tech updates are based on these existing emulators yes, and yes, unlike the Ouya and other devices, they are preinstalled and can't be altered without hacking. But just because the emulaor cores are preinstalled doesn't mean they're being sold. I don't believe the price would differ if they werent' included and you had to install them yourself like on many similar devices.

I mean, the Ouya runs many of the same emulator cores as the Retron5. The SNES emulator you even need to pay for to the person who ported the code to the Ouya, not the author of the emulator to begin with. This is common practice. Look at other devices too. Android Tablets, the Dingoo, Open Pandora, and many others all are sold with the promise to run ROM files using emulators the creators of the device didn't write and are therefore benefiting off the work of those open source emulator authors. The Retron5 is not in any real unique position as far as all that.
Post Merge: October 04, 2014, 09:07:48 pm
Okay, part 7 is now up.

Part 7 - GameBoy, Super GameBoy, GameBoy Color

Of all the things the Retron5 does, this is what I was looking forward to most, since there's no way to play Super GameBoy games on an HDTV without using an RGB upscaler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZID1iwArQ

[MarioMania]

I don't think stores going to sell it now because of all this

[hvc01]

Dumping ROMs and disturbing them to others is illegal. Making personal and temporary back-ups is not. The Retron5 falls into the latter.

It's clearly not a backup.

But just because the emulator cores are preinstalled doesn't mean they're being sold.

What does it mean then?

[satoshi_matrix]

Yes it is a backup. It dumps the rom directly from the cartridge and erases it when the cartridge is removed. It is as legal of creating a back up as is possible.

It simply means the emulators aren't sold, and thus I think there would be a very hard case against the argument that hyperkin is violating the stace that open source software cannot be sold. What is being sold is the hardware that runs the open source software. Not the software itself.

anyway.


Next, Part 8. GameBoy Advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q06g0p6g44

[L___E___T]

Satoshi I'm afraid you're mistaken on the legality of ROMs - the 'personal copy if you own the cartridge' thing is an urban myth and they are not legal in this way - but are simply not pursued by legal teams, or at least not all of them.

Simply put, creating a backup ROM is not legal because it circumvents copy protection and breaks several clauses.  The legislature of 'creating a backup' doesn't disclaim it either, for various reasons.

As for the Hyperkin - very simply the way that it plays games is at the very core of the product offering - so they are being sold in this sense, it would be indefensible.  

What you've stated as a disclaimer would unfortunately be a weak defense, because all of their marketing promotion calls out the way that the games are playable, it would never hold up.  The law is a fickle thing and doesn't depend on plain logic - it depends on how well a lawyer can argue a case that their POV is the correct one.  Nintendo's lawyers would beat Hyperkin's if it came to it, which would also then create a precedent that could be referred back to for any future cases for a pretty much instant decision, quite scary to think about.

What's more, the emulators they used had licenses that have been broken - so there are three key issues that they have hanging over like a muddy cloud.

Having said that, I don't think it will be pulled from the shelves or anything, it may be seen as hard for some stores to have confidence in it though (like buying in more stock).

[post purge]

Aaaaand that aside - I'm looking forward to the GBA video - this is the main thing I'm interested in at the moment.  

It's very hard not to comment on the whole thing though hence the above.  It's all become part of the discussion I've found.

[UglyJoe]

Simply put, creating a backup ROM is not legal because it circumvents copy protection and breaks several clauses.  The legislature of 'creating a backup' doesn't disclaim it either, for various reasons.

I've gotta call BS on that one.  It's true that you are not allowed to circumvent copy protection when making a backup, but something like a Famicom cart doesn't have copy protection (well, the vast majority of them, anyway).  You are legally entitled to a backup.  However, you are not, as far as I can tell, legally entitled to play that backup in an emulator.

I agree with your general sentiment, though.  Yeah, it's violating all sorts of licenses, but it's hardly the first product to do so.  Any store that was willing to carry an emulation device like this isn't likely to pull it from the shelves just because the internet is shouting "it's an emulator!".

The emulator licensing violations are also kind of laughable.  I don't think the FSF is going to go to bat for the authors of a piece of software that is, realistically speaking, a means of playing lots of games you didn't pay for.  The firmware/software being used should be GPL'd, sure, but any talk of legal action is overblown.  The GPL is about openness, not litigation.



On topic: I'm going to be holed up in a hotel room tomorrow night, so maybe I'll get around to watching these videos.  It seems like a curious device, even if it is something I don't see myself ever buying.

[L___E___T]

It's all debatable, but yes I don't see there being announcements on it, it's just not a big enough deal.  The emulator guys are annoyed, but that's a sour pill they'll have to swallow.

The ROM thing is interesting, I've heard some refer to lock out chips as copy protection and others to the PRG and CHR banks as copy protection - but yes in the end it's all debatable discussion and would need an actual court case to verify the topic into solidarity.

Nintendo's position is clear, but I don't know how much they've enforced it.  Can't find their 101 on it to link now, but it's around.

[satoshi_matrix]

Nine days of reviews comes to an end with my final thoughts on the Hyperkin Retron5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2ehUARe-0

I have added a playlist that includes all videos in this series in case you missed an installment.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtsZRFeG-MhIDSzwO_hm-FNRNqjd_qQva

Thanks for watching everyone. This is the longest review series for a single product I've ever done, due to the sheer amount that needed to be covered.