Riki 8Bit Game Collection

[fcgamer]

Colombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.

With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

Are or are not the cartridges damaging and faulty when used on Columbus Circus's own clones? If their clones are 3.3 volt matching the cartridges, then how can you say that the cartridges are dangerous and shoddy electronic craftsmanship?

If I made NES games and stuck them on 80-pin cartridges for play in my customized NES clone, which has an 80 pin cartridge slot, what exactly is the problem? It's happened time and again, even companies took the NES architecture and expanded upon it with the one bus, etc..

There are only two issues here, and one concerns neither you or I

1. Using a clone as the default for the game is an ignorant move, from business perspective. It's the same as if I did 80 pin cartridges. It's an ignorant business move, but at the end of the day, the company*should* have the autonomy to do this, even if it isn't what *we* would prefer.

2. Advertising about the FC on the box. This is the *sin* they committed, as it suggests full compatibility. If they removed this text and just said (in Japanese of course), "Compatible with modern Famiclones such as ours" theh there would have been no problem whatsoever, aside from butthurt reactions from hobbyists.

Sorry, I'm just looking at things from an unbiased manner. I hate onions on pizza, but if a default pizza in Sweden or Finland comes with onions on it, this doesn't mean that Finns and Swedes can't make pizza.   If it were subsequently advertised as "Real Italian authentic taste" then there would be an issue.

[P]

Making homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

You do realize that licensed or not has absolutely nothing to do with quality, right? This is a huge misconception but it's 2024 now, so it's time we look at it from a factual standpoint.

Licensed just meant that the company paid a fee to Nintendo...that's it. Software such as Videomation was both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region. Or are you talking about the fabrication itself, which Nintendo would do? But if the latter, then the following paragraph doesn't make sense...

When making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version

You see the problem?

Nintendo had, and still has, some sort of quality check for licensed games which is a basic list of requirements each game must pass before they are allowed to be released. I don't know exactly when it formally started as not all Famicom/NES games follows all the rules found in later such lists by Nintendo (like that a game must be able to pause using the START button which for example Punch-Out doesn't conform to), but I think it's quite clear that they didn't allow just any random coded thing to be released as a commercial game for the system as Nintendo was very aware of what the Atari-shock could do.
Some games unintentionally do some things that are considered bad, these are things that are hard to detect and Nintendo probably didn't have time to check every line of code for every submitted game (if they even looked at the source at all). But I think Nintendo was more concerned that someone didn't release another ET for the Famicom.

That's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility as a typical licensed game for the system isn't very hard with all the information and tools we got today. That means there are not that many rules to follow to get it right and a lot of it is just common sense.

Colombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.

With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

Are or are not the cartridges damaging and faulty when used on Columbus Circus's own clones? If their clones are 3.3 volt matching the cartridges, then how can you say that the cartridges are dangerous and shoddy electronic craftsmanship?

Well, I've never seen their clones nor do I know if they are fully 3.3 V systems or if their cartridges are fully 3.3 V, nor do I know if it's designed to be able to play 5 V cartridges as well. But making a Famicom-style 60-pin cartridge and marketing as such, despite using dangerous engineering, with just a small note that it is only guaranteed to work with their own Famiclone is a business move in very poor taste IMHO.
AFAIK it's not like they used large warning signs telling people that their game must only be used with 3.3 V Famiclones which would be the right thing to do at the very least. Even better, if we consider their Famiclone truly a standalone system incompatible with the official Famicom specification, would be to design their Famiclone to make it physically incompatible with 60-pin Famicom carts from the start, but that would hurt the system's library as it could only play their own few games and not the 1000+ existing 60-pin cartridges, so of course they couldn't do that.
They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.

I'm not sure how your view is more unbiased than mine. I think it's a subjective matter so I'm not sure it can be viewed objectively. I understand what you are saying but I can't help but feel like they tried to get away with their crime of not manufacturing it with the standards the customer would expect.

In the end their actions just results in hardware being hurt which would be unacceptable in so many other art-forms/hobbies/contexts, I don't see why video games should be an exception and why video game hobbyists would just be "butthurt" for not accepting asshole moves.

[fcgamer]

Nintendo had, and still has, some sort of quality check for licensed games which is a basic list of requirements each game must pass before they are allowed to be released. I don't know exactly when it formally started as not all Famicom/NES games follows all the rules found in later such lists by Nintendo (like that a game must be able to pause using the START button which for example Punch-Out doesn't conform to), but I think it's quite clear that they didn't allow just any random coded thing to be released as a commercial game for the system as Nintendo was very aware of what the Atari-shock could do.
Some games unintentionally do some things that are considered bad, these are things that are hard to detect and Nintendo probably didn't have time to check every line of code for every submitted game (if they even looked at the source at all). But I think Nintendo was more concerned that someone didn't release another ET for the Famicom.

On Licensing:

The reason that Nintendo's licensing is mostly seen for what it was -- a maneauver to control manufacturing and a way to bilk more money from developers, is due to situations such as these, which *cannot* be explained away in any good manner.

Videomation: This game was licensed for the Nintendo NES in North America; however, the Famicom release is unauthorized / unlicensed. The Famicom release is not a pirate / bootleg though, and was authorized by the company that had the IP. The game was also released in Brazil for the NES, and this was also *likely* to have been authorized by the IP holder. So this crappy drawing game is both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region.








Here's another example:

Time Diver Eon Man would have undoubtedly been a licensed Nintendo title, if it had been released. It was even advertised in Nintendo Power magazine!



Oh wait, actually it didn't go unreleased at all! There's a Famicom version, but it is unauthorized, yet widely considered to have been authorized by the developers.



So once again, licensed and unlicensed.

Then there are games such as the three licensed Tengen titles, which obviously became unlicensed when Tengen and Nintendo parted ways; however, these titles are scrubbed from any official Nintendo lists, actually stuff like Mike Tyson's was too. There have also been debates about whether things such as the Nintendo test cartridges / Nintendo World Champ (not the Switch rerelease) are licensed or not. It seems they would not have been licensed, but then again, does Nintendo themselves really need to license their own products?

That's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility as a typical licensed game for the system isn't very hard with all the information and tools we got today. That means there are not that many rules to follow to get it right and a lot of it is just common sense.

I don't think this is a situation regarding whether something is "easy" or "difficult" to do. Were Columbus Circle actually involved in developing the game, or were they just the publisher / producer, with Riki and his team doing all of the development stuff themselves? So I'm not really sure how ease of ability to get things "right" is relevant to the discussion; however, I'll go with it for a minute.

I guess what I would ask is "What is the actual problem if a developer knowingly decides to develop a ROM that is only compatible in NESticle emulators, for example? Is the problem compatibility issues? Nope, not if it were a conscious decision made by the developer. Lack of users? Once again, nope, the developer of this "NESticle-only" compatible ROM would have been full aware before taking this venture. So what would be the harm? The only harm would come from those insisting to use a more accurate game emulator to run their NES ROMs. That being said, why shouldn't it be within the right of a developer to make a game that is only compatible on NESticle emulator, if he or she desires?

Well, I've never seen their clones nor do I know if they are fully 3.3 V systems or if their cartridges are fully 3.3 V, nor do I know if it's designed to be able to play 5 V cartridges as well. But making a Famicom-style 60-pin cartridge and marketing as such, despite using dangerous engineering, with just a small note that it is only guaranteed to work with their own Famiclone is a business move in very poor taste IMHO.
AFAIK it's not like they used large warning signs telling people that their game must only be used with 3.3 V Famiclones which would be the right thing to do at the very least. Even better, if we consider their Famiclone truly a standalone system incompatible with the official Famicom specification, would be to design their Famiclone to make it physically incompatible with 60-pin Famicom carts from the start, but that would hurt the system's library as it could only play their own few games and not the 1000+ existing 60-pin cartridges, so of course they couldn't do that.
They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.

They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.[/quote]

To make an accurate assessment, what someone would have to do is purchase one of their clones, and see if it was designed solely for 3.3 V cartridges, for 5 V cartridges, or for both; however, it is most likely at least 3.3 V compatible, as from my understanding that has somewhat become the "standard" for this modern Famiclones coming out of the PRC.

Things get interesting though, as I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of people (not collectors, people) running games off of original hardware versus clones, and to another extent, modern clones. This forum, we are purists and to some degree collectors, so we would be using real machines to be running the games; however, I honestly suspect that this number is much, much lower when we get outside and start looking around at more casual gamers.

This is anecdotal, but I know a ton of people back home running their NES games off of crappy "cheap" clones as they are just casual, tossing out their NES machines years ago due to the broken pin connectors. Similarly, casuals don't want to deal with the RF bullshit on modern televisions, people have concerns for hi-def, etc. There's a reason Book Off was selling their own clones (which ironically enough seem to have been manufactured by Columbus Circle). 

When you look at it from this viewpoint, it starts to become much less cut and dry.

I'm not sure how your view is more unbiased than mine. I think it's a subjective matter so I'm not sure it can be viewed objectively. I understand what you are saying but I can't help but feel like they tried to get away with their crime of not manufacturing it with the standards the customer would expect.

My view is more unbiased, as I am trying to take a stance that is not a collector-normative stance. As an aside, I made fliers and passed them around to all of my colleagues before quitting my job, a few months back. The fliers were asking about old games, and then had my contact information. Literally everyone thought I was nuts to be asking about wanting to buy these games, and a few of the folks had even recommended to me places where I could purchase modern clone machines with modern clone games (i.e. Aliexpress). It was a reality check, i.e. despite the fact that this is our world, for 99.9% of people, they aren't even playing these old games, and then the ones that do, by now even a smaller portion is going "full purist" running real cartridges off real hardware.

So when we complain about Columbus Circle products, for example, we are viewing it from the view of collectors, like I said, a collector-normative stance; however, the reality is that we are just a tiny portion of all gamers, or even the world population, which shows our inherant bias and the flaws that come from it.

In the end their actions just results in hardware being hurt which would be unacceptable in so many other art-forms/hobbies/contexts, I don't see why video games should be an exception and why video game hobbyists would just be "butthurt" for not accepting asshole moves.

It's mostly butthurt because as I mentioned before, we are viewing things from a collector-normative viewpoint. We are going in making the assumption that all new games that run NES / Famicom compatible hardware should run flawlessly on our old machines, period. We are taking that as some God-given right, furthermore stating that "it's easy to do, the knowledge is out there too!" The issue though, is this just reeks of entitlement.

We fail to take into consideration that Columbus Circle's first and foremost objective likely was to insure compatibility with the machines they were selling. We ignore any sort of cost factors; once again, the lay person might purchase a CC clone and the games, if seeing them for sale at a supermarket checkout or on a display, whereas a collector would just purchase a single cartridge. So we ignore costs and profits, and we demand that a Chinese company market their products to the smallest niche possible. Stop and think about it for a minute, it just starts sounding like a bunch of bratty, screaming children after a point.

And therein is where my issue lies. When I want to play (hear) the game, I just throw it into one of my 3.3 V clones. Similarly, this would be a huge market point for a hobbyist to create an adaptor and sell it to correct this issue for those running games on the 5 V machines. Instead though, it's just complaints from those who subscribe to this collector-normative viewpoint that the majority of gamers would be using original hardware (guess what, I think most aren't...)

Yes, Columbus Circle should not list "FC" on their box since there is a compatibility issue there; that is misleading. Whether it was an oversight or intentional, it's really hard to tell. Otherwise, there's nothing "wrong" with what they did.

Does Columbus Circles decisions make perfect business sense? Not necessarily, but neither does the guy developing a ROM specifically for NESticle only, or the guy making NES games for 80 pin cartridges so that they are only compatible with his 80 pin game console. However, while against the "collector-norm", I believe everyone has the right to do as they please, as long as it is clearly marked for what it is.

[fcgamer]

Final Thoughts:

1. I'm just a live and let live kind of guy.

2. I'd consider Columbus Circle to be indie, not homebrew (yes I think we are getting to the point where the two should be separated)

3. I always use official hardware as the "standard" for any games I develop / produce.

[P]

On Licensing:

The reason that Nintendo's licensing is mostly seen for what it was -- a maneauver to control manufacturing and a way to bilk more money from developers, is due to situations such as these, which *cannot* be explained away in any good manner.
...
Then there are games such as the three licensed Tengen titles, which obviously became unlicensed when Tengen and Nintendo parted ways; however, these titles are scrubbed from any official Nintendo lists, actually stuff like Mike Tyson's was too. There have also been debates about whether things such as the Nintendo test cartridges / Nintendo World Champ (not the Switch rerelease) are licensed or not. It seems they would not have been licensed, but then again, does Nintendo themselves really need to license their own products?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say? There are licensed and unlicensed games, both good and bad, we all know that already. I don't see how it has anything to do with my point.

That's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility...

I don't think this is a situation regarding whether something is "easy" or "difficult" to do...

You and Ghegs were talking about how an unlicensed aftermarket game like this couldn't very easily be 100% compatible with the official hardware, so I shared my own experience in that, but I snowed in on the software aspect a bit too much which isn't where Columbus Circle or Riki did anything wrong AFAIK, it was the hardware aspect they did wrong, so yeah I got a little derailed off-topic.

however, it is most likely at least 3.3 V compatible, as from my understanding that has somewhat become the "standard" for this modern Famiclones coming out of the PRC.

And that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

Things get interesting though, as I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of people (not collectors, people) running games off of original hardware versus clones, and to another extent, modern clones. This forum, we are purists and to some degree collectors, so we would be using real machines to be running the games; however, I honestly suspect that this number is much, much lower when we get outside and start looking around at more casual gamers...

Well, people would normally use the simplest method to be able to play these old (and new) games. I'm no different, when my NES was tossed out I resorted to emulators for many years until I bought a Famicom and later a disk system to get back my childhood collection in Famicom form. Then flashcarts and disk emulators came and made everything much more accessible, but still probably niche to the general masses. It is a real culture though with a working economy that shouldn't be taken lightly.

My view is more unbiased, as I am trying to take a stance that is not a collector-normative stance.
...
...99.9% of people, they aren't even playing these old games, and then the ones that do, by now even a smaller portion is going "full purist" running real cartridges off real hardware.
...
...the reality is that we are just a tiny portion of all gamers, or even the world population, which shows our inherent bias and the flaws that come from it.

OK now I understand what you meant by unbiased. You are trying to give it a more neutral view from a general person not engaged very deeply in the video game community. I agree that there is always value in trying to see things from a more neutral perspective in order not to get blinded. But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

It's mostly butthurt because as I mentioned before, we are viewing things from a collector-normative viewpoint. We are going in making the assumption that all new games that run NES / Famicom compatible hardware should run flawlessly on our old machines, period. We are taking that as some God-given right, furthermore stating that "it's easy to do, the knowledge is out there too!" The issue though, is this just reeks of entitlement.
...
...a collector would just purchase a single cartridge. So we ignore costs and profits, and we demand that a Chinese company market their products to the smallest niche possible. Stop and think about it for a minute, it just starts sounding like a bunch of bratty, screaming children after a point.
...

You seem to try very hard to belittle our opinions by presenting us like whiny kids that are angry for not getting what we ourselves considers us to be entitled to.
This isn't a child's game, many people are making a living out of this hobby in one way or another, including you as you said yourself. We are keeping our eyes on each others and when someone is cheating he will have to face the wrath of the others.

I have built Famicom cartridges and I'm very well aware of the cost factor. Especially sourcing the necessary 5 V parts is not easy or affordable in many cases as they are often no longer produced in favor of 3.3 V parts. The proper way to do it with 3.3 V parts is to use voltage translator circuits which are not free and adds additional complexity. Not being able to afford it is just an excuse and not a reason. If they can't do it the normal way they have no choice but try to find another valid solution to the problem. But instead they chose to take the easy way and cheat, and now they will have to face the consequences. And the consequences is our vocal criticism which in turn results in hurting their sales, rightfully so for the damage they did to us.

So this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

[fcgamer]

And that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

I disagree on this point. I own a few cartridges the same as the type purchased on Aliexpress, the 500 in 1s and stuff. They are most surely 3.3 V, they won't even work on my Famicom hardware. If someone had one of those cartridges with more or less all the games they played as a kid, along with a game machine that more or less looks like what they had as a child, for most people it would be enough, and if it weren't, then buy a few more Aliexpress cheapies.

Well, people would normally use the simplest method to be able to play these old (and new) games. I'm no different, when my NES was tossed out I resorted to emulators for many years until I bought a Famicom and later a disk system to get back my childhood collection in Famicom form. Then flashcarts and disk emulators came and made everything much more accessible, but still probably niche to the general masses. It is a real culture though with a working economy that shouldn't be taken lightly.

See above...for a lot of casual gamers, a few multis with the games they played as a child and a machine is what they want. Or a flashcart and a machine. Or an emulator and some ROMs. For some reason this seems to get dismissed a lot by the camp complaining about the Columbus Circle games, i.e. that there are a TON of gamers solely playing 3.3 V cartridges on their 3.3 V machines.

It has become the new "standard", and if the companies are developing 3.3 V cartridges to go alongside their 3.3 V machines, then I am not sure how one can argue that it is electronic engineering.

To give an example, look at the scenario of the USB formats. I personally hate that there is such an array of USB sizes, Micro and Mini and everything else. It's a pain in the ass trying to have the right cable and what not; however, it's just an inevitable part of technology evolving over time.

OK now I understand what you meant by unbiased. You are trying to give it a more neutral view from a general person not engaged very deeply in the video game community. I agree that there is always value in trying to see things from a more neutral perspective in order not to get blinded. But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

Not exactly - a lot of these people are gamers, just not on the same level as us in terms of gaming / collecting / developing / etc.

And that brings up a somewhat interesting point, unlike in the west with the NES, there was never a period where the Famicom / clones "died". Those machines and some sort of cartridges for those machines was always available from the birthtime up until now. So again in contrast to the NES (which was revived due to the efforts of hobbyists), this is a much larger market that isn't just ran by hobbyists.

You seem to try very hard to belittle our opinions by presenting us like whiny kids that are angry for not getting what we ourselves considers us to be entitled to.
This isn't a child's game, many people are making a living out of this hobby in one way or another, including you as you said yourself. We are keeping our eyes on each others and when someone is cheating he will have to face the wrath of the others.

I have built Famicom cartridges and I'm very well aware of the cost factor. Especially sourcing the necessary 5 V parts is not easy or affordable in many cases as they are often no longer produced in favor of 3.3 V parts. The proper way to do it with 3.3 V parts is to use voltage translator circuits which are not free and adds additional complexity. Not being able to afford it is just an excuse and not a reason. If they can't do it the normal way they have no choice but try to find another valid solution to the problem. But instead they chose to take the easy way and cheat, and now they will have to face the consequences. And the consequences is our vocal criticism which in turn results in hurting their sales, rightfully so for the damage they did to us.

It's not about trying to belittle the viewpoints of people such as yourself and Ghegs, rather it is about looking at the matter objectively, as here's what I see:

A. Somewhere in the late 90s, NOAC machines became really popular in many parts of the world, and I am guessing that somewhere around this change is also when machines switched from 5 V to 3.3 V for clones.

B. The NES dies in the west, but Famiclone machines and cartridges to use with these machines continue to be manufactured in poorer regions, while the cost of manufacture keeps diminishing.

C. Here comes the 2000s, more games and more Famiclones are produced.

D. Around 2016 or so, there's a huge retro boom in the States / west and now there's a lot more homebrew.

E. NOW: In the west: NESMaker brings about yet another surge of indie games, and now it's become such a market for hobbyists and day programmers as well. Avenues such as being able to publish on the Switch just make it even more appealing.

NOW (FAMICOM / FAMICLONE) regions: There's some homebrew activity in Japan, but nothing compared to that in the west, the games aren't very accessible to outsiders, and production is limited. In other regions, homebrew / indie is more or less nonexistent. Despite that, Famiclones with cartridges are still being marketed and purchased, with people wanting to play the games they enjoyed as children.

Conclusion: You see, the NES was dead and then revived by fans, the Famicom / Famiclones never had a period where it died. So we cannot draw a 1:1 comparison here over the demographics of buyers.

So this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

It's not though. Average gamers are satisfied with their 3.3 clone and multicart - if they weren't, that stuff wouldn't continue to be manufactured. And like it or not, average gamers likely make up the bulk of the market here, compared to in the west where the market is literally being propped up by hobbyists (I mean, the NES already died once...)

In conclusion, it goes back to the same reason that there's nothing wrong if a company makes 80 pin cartridges for their 80 pin machines, or if a developer purposely creates a ROM that will only run on NESticle - it may be a weird choice, but there is nothing wrong with it, and I personally feel that it is within the rights for people to do such, even if it is not what I prefer or feel is "right"

That said, Columbus Circle does not get off scot-free though. Their sin is that on the side of the box it says FC / FC Clones Compatible. This would be misleading, and therefore is a problem. If they changed their boxes to read "FC Clones Compatible" then no one should find any fault in what they did.

[P]

And that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

I disagree on this point. I own a few cartridges the same as the type purchased on Aliexpress, the 500 in 1s and stuff. They are most surely 3.3 V, they won't even work on my Famicom hardware.

I'm confused, you might have a point in that they could be considered their own thing if they are only used for 3.3 V carts, but then again you did say yourself that people are using them for playing their childhood NES games, which seems to me to suggest that people are using them to play all types 60-pin cartridges, even the licensed ones which we know are all designed for 5 V logic.

...
For some reason this seems to get dismissed a lot by the camp complaining about the Columbus Circle games, i.e. that there are a TON of gamers solely playing 3.3 V cartridges on their 3.3 V machines.

It has become the new "standard", and if the companies are developing 3.3 V cartridges to go alongside their 3.3 V machines, then I am not sure how one can argue that it is electronic engineering.

But at the time when this started to become a "new standard" the old 5 V Famiclones were most likely still very numerous, and most older ROM cartridges (licensed and unlicensed alike) in circulation at the time was also using 5 V parts right?
So the problem must have already existed during this shift to 3.3 V parts, unless they took care to make them dual compatible but as far as we know there started to appear many 3.3 V cart at some point which would damage the older consoles (Famicoms and Famiclones alike).
If that was the case it sounds to me more like poor engineering than what a proper upgrade to using more modern parts would take.

...
But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

Not exactly - a lot of these people are gamers, just not on the same level as us in terms of gaming / collecting / developing / etc.

Well I never tried to say they aren't gamers and this is besides the point anyway.

And that brings up a somewhat interesting point, unlike in the west with the NES, there was never a period where the Famicom / clones "died".
...
So again in contrast to the NES (which was revived due to the efforts of hobbyists), this is a much larger market that isn't just ran by hobbyists.

That doesn't make the Famicom/NES hobbyist culture where the Famicom never died any less significant. The Famiclone culture is also a part of this division of the gaming community and is affected by it much the same way.

It's not about trying to belittle the viewpoints of people such as yourself and Ghegs, rather it is about looking at the matter objectively...

Then why did you say it sounds like we are whiny kids? I don't think our viewpoints sounds unreasonable from an unbiased view. And as I said before, a subjective matter can't be looked on objectively (or vice versa for an objective matter), for a subjective matter there are no facts only opinions, you can't say only one side is right and not the other. You said we sound like we think our opinion is universally right by holy powers, then you present this other opinion as being "objective" which to me sounds like you are just trying to make it appear universally right.

So this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

It's not though. Average gamers are satisfied with their 3.3 clone and multicart - if they weren't, that stuff wouldn't continue to be manufactured.
...
In conclusion, it goes back to the same reason that there's nothing wrong if a company makes 80 pin cartridges for their 80 pin machines...

So you are saying because the average gamer doesn't understand the problem and is happy anyway it doesn't affect the whole gaming community? But yet you do agree that this type of engineering is causing damage to the old hardware? That's where the problem lies and it affects us all directly or indirectly on many levels, that's why we think it's unacceptable.

That said, Columbus Circle does not get off scot-free though. Their sin is that on the side of the box it says FC / FC Clones Compatible. This would be misleading, and therefore is a problem. If they changed their boxes to read "FC Clones Compatible" then no one should find any fault in what they did.

Well, I guess I can agree to that. I think they should have taken more measures to make sure people are not using it on the wrong hardware though considering how easy it still is to find used Famicoms and games in Japan.

[fcgamer]

I'm confused, you might have a point in that they could be considered their own thing if they are only used for 3.3 V carts, but then again you did say yourself that people are using them for playing their childhood NES games, which seems to me to suggest that people are using them to play all types 60-pin cartridges, even the licensed ones which we know are all designed for 5 V logic.

People are buying these clones and at the same time they are purchasing modern Aliexpress multicarts to go with. They are buying these multicarts that contain 500+ games on them to play the games they loved playing when they were a child. Sorry if I worded it in a way to suggest they were using the actual cartridges from their childhood...those have in many cases been tossed or sold, along with their childhood machine, hence the purchasing of these new shiny 3.3 V machines with multicart. It's actually a good deal for many, too, at just less than $50 to get a new machine that doesn't look dirty, plus one or two multicart cartridges containing their favorite games.

But at the time when this started to become a "new standard" the old 5 V Famiclones were most likely still very numerous, and most older ROM cartridges (licensed and unlicensed alike) in circulation at the time was also using 5 V parts right?
So the problem must have already existed during this shift to 3.3 V parts, unless they took care to make them dual compatible but as far as we know there started to appear many 3.3 V cart at some point which would damage the older consoles (Famicoms and Famiclones alike).
If that was the case it sounds to me more like poor engineering than what a proper upgrade to using more modern parts would take.

There is always going to be some overlap between the different technology periods, think about USB cables for example. Furthermore, after having our discussion, I just realized that the companies did address this compatibility issue, but more on that later.

That doesn't make the Famicom/NES hobbyist culture where the Famicom never died any less significant. The Famiclone culture is also a part of this division of the gaming community and is affected by it much the same way.

My point is that unlike with the NES market (where it died and was revived by hobbyists and thus the lion's share of participants are going to be hobbyists), on the Famicom/clone side, as it never died, there is going to be a really large casual market. For example, I remember seeing Famiclone machines sold inside French-owned Carrefour hypermarkets, and these were cartridge-based machines, circa 2011, way before the NES/Famicom mini started appearing everywhere.

Then why did you say it sounds like we are whiny kids? I don't think our viewpoints sounds unreasonable from an unbiased view. And as I said before, a subjective matter can't be looked on objectively (or vice versa for an objective matter), for a subjective matter there are no facts only opinions, you can't say only one side is right and not the other. You said we sound like we think our opinion is universally right by holy powers, then you present this other opinion as being "objective" which to me sounds like you are just trying to make it appear universally right.

You guys are looking at the tiniest market, while ignoring the big picture. That's what comes across a little bit as whiny imo. We are collectors, developers, gamers who never stopped, etc. - however, are we necessarily the target market for these products? Or is the target market for their products going to be the casual guys who are also purchasing the modern 3.3 V clones?

I mean, to even think about it some more, let's go back to USB cables. If I were to manufacture phones or widgets or something and only used the oldest USB technology, it would be weird, right? Or should I manufacture the phone using the latest USB technology, knowing that some folks will have to purchase new cables? As 3.3 V machines are now the standard* , it seems somewhat understandable that all cartridges would be 3.3 V by now.

*I personally hate these modern clones and cartridges, btw.

So you are saying because the average gamer doesn't understand the problem and is happy anyway it doesn't affect the whole gaming community? But yet you do agree that this type of engineering is causing damage to the old hardware? That's where the problem lies and it affects us all directly or indirectly on many levels, that's why we think it's unacceptable.

I'm saying that people / companies should have the right to do as they see fit, even if it isn't something that we prefer, as long as it is clear what they are doing.

As a hot take, I actually just realized that both Columbus Circle and other western /Japanese homebrew / indie companies both potentially screwed up, as there was indeed quite a distinct way to differentiate between the 3.3 V and 5 V cartridges.

The 3.3 V cartridges from my knowledge virtually all appear in the "smaller", "thinner" cartridge shells, generally having dots on the top of the cartridge. The 5 V cartridges area regular sized, like any Famicom / Famiclone cartridge we would be used to.

Exceptions: Columbus Circle threw their 3.3 V cartridges inside old-style shells = FAIL

Mega Cat Studios threw their 5 V indie Famicom games inside those 3.3 V cartridge shells = FAIL

The guys behind the Halloween games threw their 5 V indie Famicom games inside those 3.3 V shells = FAIL

Harodius guy threw his 5 V indie Famicom game inside those 3.3 V shells = FAIL

Outside of these major fails by folks who had no idea what they were doing (IMO), there was a nice system going, i.e. the small crappy shells with the dots = 3.3 V for the newer clones, and the regular, old style cartridges = 5 V for older clones / legitimate hardware. The manufacturers literally made a way to differentiate between the items. This never dawned on me until now, but as the manufacturers even gave us a way to separate between these compatibilities, I think the companies listed above are all at fault for muddying the waters so badly, as they all failed to comply.

[P]

USB is really a very poor analogy as even USB 3.0 is fully backwards-compatible with the USB 1 as introduced in the mid '90s. But I get what you mean, companies can't keep supporting old hardware forever as they have to move on and use parts that they are able to source today. That's definitely reasonable, regardless if one think it should apply to the Famiclone situation or not.


Your point is that the Famiclone market is larger than the hobbyist-old-hardware-market as it includes more causal players than just hardcore enthusiasts, but I don't see how that really changes anything. Actually that just makes it worse because casual players tends to be blissfully unaware of the dangers, and there is no telling if they use 3.3 V cartridges in a 5 V Famicom/Famiclone as well or a 5 V cartridge in a 3.3 V Famiclone.


You say that companies should have the right to do as they see fit, I say people should also have the right to stand up in order to make sure no company takes things too far.

A few years ago there was a ruckus in the community because a few articles made a big thing about cartridges for 5 V machines that were using 3.3 V parts with little to no voltage translation.
Some of the cheapest carts were especially badly designed which would make them just keep damaging themselves until the cartridge broke, while others used simple methods of limiting the voltage so that they would appear to work but would gradually wear out both the cart and console. Also many of these products where definitely marketed towards users with official hardware and not only clones.
This was an even bigger problem for other systems like the Game Boy, PC Engine and SFC as these uses CMOS technology which is much more sensitive to the wrong voltage than the Famicom's NMOS technology is.
Some sellers and manufacturers of modern multicarts, bootlegs and flashcarts such as the Everdrives became really angry and some of them started to post forum posts and videos with lots of technobabble to make it sound like they knew what they were talking about and reassured consumers that their cartridges were 100% safe to use. But the truth was that they just wanted to save their sales by taking advantage of the general public's lack of technical knowledge regarding this.

Some of the initial claims in these articles were exaggerated but it did a good job in making the masses aware of the problem, which was real. Manufacturers realized that this new movement couldn't be stopped and was hurting their sales, so they eventually started to use proper voltage translation in order to improve sales again. For example none of the Everdrives manufactured today has this problem AFAIK while some of the older Everdrives did.

I mean this isn't about rights, it's about preventing people from being hurt when lines are crossed. In this case, criticizing companies for their bad behavior was highly successful, so we shouldn't be quiet on the grounds that they "have the right to do what they want", because we have the equal right to criticize them.



That system where the design of the cartridge is used as an indicator of the voltage was just bound to fail. How would such rules be enforced when there are so many different manufacturers of cartridges? The shells are not easy to produce so homebrewers that wants to make their own carts would just take whichever they can get that is the cheapest and of OK quality.
Also it would require some knowledge to even know that there is a difference in the first place. If it fits in the console and the game runs, I'm pretty sure most people would just assume that it is compatible with the system, unless there are some kind of warnings on the cartridge or something.

[fcgamer]

That system where the design of the cartridge is used as an indicator of the voltage was just bound to fail. How would such rules be enforced when there are so many different manufacturers of cartridges? The shells are not easy to produce so homebrewers that wants to make their own carts would just take whichever they can get that is the cheapest and of OK quality.
Also it would require some knowledge to even know that there is a difference in the first place. If it fits in the console and the game runs, I'm pretty sure most people would just assume that it is compatible with the system, unless there are some kind of warnings on the cartridge or something.

From my perspective, the cartridge system was genius - I do not know anyone that accepts that style cartridge shell with open arms. Everyone that I know hates them, and views them as modern crap to be used with modern machines. In a similar way, the people who were buying that crap don't see anything wrong, yet such casual people are also the ones generally buying the 3.3 V clones.

In my opinion, it was a huge fault of the homebrew community (i.e. those companies mentioned above) for using the wrong shells for their games. Actually, the Mega Cat Famicom homebrews suck balls imo, sorry for the vulgarness but NES box + NES manual + small sticker on NES box stating that it is a Famicom version + 3.3 V style modern shell? That's the markings of a cash grab imo, a hastily put together product.

For the two Famicom Halloween games, I can't even remember if they had boxes or not, but once again, I hated the cartridges when I saw them. Harodius should have been better since it was a game developed by people in Japan, but once again I cringed when I saw the cartridge shell. Anyone who knows about 3.3 V and 5 V also knows about those crappy, small modern carts and everything else.

Columbus Circle of course went the other way and while I like their shells, it still sucks that they were also partially responsible for messing up the system.

I mean, I have some late release cartridges from Waixing IIRC, which were 3.3 V versions, and even that company managed to conform to the standard. I don't think conforming to the clear cartridge design standard is much to ask, either. It at least makes a bit of sense in a modern world where 3.3 V is the standard while still a ton of 5 V machines / carts exist. At least people can quickly determine what is what, what damages what, etc.

[P]

I see, yeah well those typically cheap-looking modern cart shells wouldn't exactly be my first choice if I were to sell cartridges of my homebrew. The chance that people would mistake them for typical 3.3 V carts is part of the problem indeed, I'd like something that look more like the traditional licensed Famicom carts.

[fcgamer]

I see, yeah well those typically cheap-looking modern cart shells wouldn't exactly be my first choice if I were to sell cartridges of my homebrew. The chance that people would mistake them for typical 3.3 V carts is part of the problem indeed, I'd like something that look more like the traditional licensed Famicom carts.

Well if you do decide to sell cartridges of your homebrew, I could perhaps publish it.

Either way, it took awhile but it looks like we came to an understanding with the whole CC thing too. Crises adverted, I hate all that cheap modern stuff too haha.

[P]

Sure, I'm not a very skilled programmer, but maybe someday I could finish something that is worth selling.

[fcgamer]

Actually I stand corrected about something.

Today I woke up to see someone from a Brazilian FB group talking excitedly about how he purchased a brand new Famiclone with a multicart. It was obviously a 3.3 V monstrosity, and I mentioned it but the guy really didn't seem to say much on that point. He said he thought it looked good as it came with two detachable controllers and also long AV cables, two points where the original generation Famicoms don't really hold up, and then a multicart with a ton of games.

As the guy seems to be a collector and a gamer, it almost feels as though he isn't aware of the potential damage to the old machines by using the newer games on them. It looks like in some regions this problem extends quite deep, sadly.

[P]

Yeah I'd wager there are many that either don't know about it or ignores it for some reason.
The sellers of the stuff are doing their best to darken it, so people that don't have the technical knowledge might not know what to believe and others just believes what they want to believe. If you spent a lot of money on an item that is said to be potentially dangerous, I guess some people may ignore it and rather believe the sellers' claims instead.