pirate or bootleg carts

[hvc01]

Hi,

Interesting to know what thoughts are about changing the rules regarding the sale of pirate / bootleg carts? I think it is wrong to steal an idea which isn't your own, pass it off as your own and make a profit from it. I would prefer to see this site trade / discuss only licensed or unlicensed original work only.

HVC01

[MaxXimus]

Thanks for your input.

My stance on this is that while we don't explicitly support bootlegs, unless they are for one of the more current generation systems, say, consoles from the N64, PSX era and beyond, we tend to turn a blind eye as long as the seller is not trying to pass the game off as official.

Please refer to rule 12 for more clarification.

I'd like to hear other mods, and UglyJoe's stance on this as well.

[UglyJoe]

The words "pirate", "bootleg", and "unlicensed" should be defined so that we can properly understand your question.  They mean different things to different people.

[MaxXimus]

To me, unlicensed refers to any work which has been unofficially released for a system, though "officially" through the company which produced it.

Bootleg, and pirate are usually interchangeable to me, but if I had to define them I would probably say something like, a pirate is an unauthorized copy of the software, while a bootleg is an unauthorized copy of the software which tries to imitate an official copy to fool people in to thinking they have something official?

Does that sound right to you hvc01?

Where would you like the line drawn? Are bootleg/pirate copies of unlicensed software alright? How would you even be able to tell if what you had was "official" unlicensed software or a pirate/bootleg of unlicensed software? There is no quality control over unlicensed software.

What is your stance on reproductions? Do you classify those as bootleg or pirate? Reproductions of unlicensed software?

Many places in the world did not get official NES/Famicom releases so to them, their "bootlegs and pirates" are official, and with no copyright in place for the specific region, has a law been broken? Dendy is one company that comes to mind.

Respond when you can. I'd love to hear your input. How would you word the new rule to accommodate all possibilities? As stated I am all ears.

[hvc01]

To me, unlicensed refers to any work which has been unofficially released for a system, though "officially" through the company which produced it.

Bootleg, and pirate are usually interchangeable to me, but if I had to define them I would probably say something like, a pirate is an unauthorized copy of the software, while a bootleg is an unauthorized copy of the software which tries to imitate an official copy to fool people in to thinking they have something official?

Does that sound right to you hvc01?

Where would you like the line drawn? Are bootleg/pirate copies of unlicensed software alright? How would you even be able to tell if what you had was "official" unlicensed software or a pirate/bootleg of unlicensed software? There is no quality control over unlicensed software.

What is your stance on reproductions? Do you classify those as bootleg or pirate? Reproductions of unlicensed software?

Many places in the world did not get official NES/Famicom releases so to them, their "bootlegs and pirates" are official, and with no copyright in place for the specific region, has a law been broken? Dendy is one company that comes to mind

Thanks for your reply. I have to agree with your definition and cannot really add more. I think this place is good at keeping people informed and I'm sure if someone tried to pass a bootleg game off as an original they wouldn't get away with it. Reproductions are a little different and kind of like mods in the pc world. Fan made translations for English language purposes I believe keep the genre alive and accessible to those who never had an opportunity to experience the game. I don't really have any experience with unlicensed games but there is no copyright infringement there just poor quality control like you say. I'm not up to date with all the legal aspects but now with the Internet making acquisition of games possible across the world any game is really available to anyone. Personally I collect licensed original games. I'm sure other people feel differenty.

[L___E___T]

 

I pretty much agree with the definitions, I'd have to think further but in my opinion and experience to date - the potential issues arise when reproductions are involved.

However even then, reproductions covers such a wide application - even down to 'genuine' whirlwind Manu releases being rehoused in legitimate Konami shells with an ambiguous label.

If we are to have a new rule, it'll be an ethics rule I would have thought - all the complaints are always an ethics issue, but that is exactly the problem to make into a rule because it is so subjective and blurred.  



I don't think a rule to expressly prohibit the sale of repros outright is justified.  There are plenty of reputable people out there making repros of things like SMB2J that appear welcome.

[fcgamer]

I pretty much agree with the definitions, I'd have to think further but in my opinion and experience to date - the potential issues arise when reproductions are involved.

However even then, reproductions covers such a wide application - even down to 'genuine' whirlwind Manu releases being rehoused in legitimate Konami shells with an ambiguous label.

If we are to have a new rule, it'll be an ethics rule I would have thought - all the complaints are always an ethics issue, but that is exactly the problem to make into a rule because it is so subjective and blurred.  



I don't think a rule to expressly prohibit the sale of repros outright is justified.  There are plenty of reputable people out there making repros of things like SMB2J that appear welcome.

I personally don't think things like a repro of SMB2J is even necessary though, since the bootleg/pirate companies had ported that disk to cart 20+ years ago.  Although their version is not official, by NIntendo's standards, it is official by historical standards   So with that being the case, why would a repro even be needed, if a historical-appropriate cart exists already?

Likewise, according to my research (and a list I am currently compiling, and hope to get a lot more work on this weekend), maybe only 100 or so NES-exclusive games never made it in Famicom format, via bootleggers.  Once again, this stuff is not official, though the originals would be considerd official to those collecting Pegasus, Dendy, etc, as once again , period pieces.  So once again, repros (imo) would never be needed for this stuff when period stuff actually exists.

To get down to the OP's question though, I am against a rule banning the sale of bootleg/pirated games, but am for a rule banning repros.   Maybe I am a bit biased since I sell bootleg/pirated carts here, but here is the reason I feel this way.

To begin, I always address my carts for what they are.  I figure that if I make it clear that these are multicarts, these are legit, those are boots, etc helps aid people in making accurate purchases.  Compared to many sellers out there, I make little profits from reselling games, and what little I do make is certainly not worth storing 2+ large boxes of old cartridges in the spare bedroom, so that every time the gf comes over, she always chews me out for looking like I am running a used game shop. 

But here is the thing about the products I sell...the vast majority of my customers hail from Russia, Poland, South America, etc.  Has anyone noticed a pattern yet?  The people that are buying these boots are people that see these games as the originals, since the (J) originals were never released in those countries.  Yet a Taiwanese WW Manu cart may have been offered for sale there back in the day, and thus these are the games that some collectors want to purchase.

Furthermore, I would argue that these games have just as much right to be traded, sold, etc as the originals, since they were all enjoyed and made back during the day.  Of course there are still a limited number of carts being produced to this day, and then there is the large amount of Alibaba crap, but a lot of the bootleg carts being sold here were made back during the early 90s.  They were not made with Nintendo's approval, but they carry just as much importance / Famicom history as the official games, I would argue.

Regarding repros, I am not a big fan of them.  I own a few repros, and they are all in bootleg shells with the name of the game written on a blank label / torn label in sharpie.  I don't particularly want realistic-looking repros, as I feel I am just fooling myself, and others, about what these things are.  With some game like Super Maruo, for instance.  I own a repro.  I would love to own the real thing, and am not against paying the full cash for it...I don't have a family yet, or many real responsibilities, and could save and get the cash if need be.  My problem though is that the game has already been reproed time and time again, and to distinguish the real from the fake, not something I would want to attempt to do, especially when we are talking about that sort of cash.  And that is my problem with repros.

Everyone wants their repros to look real.  To look like the real thing.  It all looks real, makes it hard to tell if it is a repro, a fan made release, a genuine Nintendo release, a  period bootleg, etc.  As an example, I would be willing to pay $100 or so for a FDS to FC conversion of Castlevania, but wouldn't even want to pay $10 for a repro version, even though the chip data would be the same.  By now, repros are getting so good, it is hard to spot the fakes from the reals.  Even with period bootlegs, most of them are obviously just knock-offs, whereas the repro stuff these days could easily fool buyers/collectors.

So let's ban the sale of repros, but continue to allow the sale of period bootlegs.  Thanks. 

[MaxXimus]

The fact of the matter is that at least for the time being, there is no rule preventing anyone from selling bootleg/pirate/what ever old generation games (mega drive, famicom, Super famicom, gameboy, etc) if a new rule were to be put in place (and I'm not saying a new rule will be made regarding this) it would probably have something to do with the seller having to specify whether or not the item is official. Otherwise it would be an all or nothing deal and it would be a shame to have the latter.

[hvc01]

I suppose a rule doesn't need to be in place given that this is a small community and there exists a feedback system in place if an item isn't what you thought you were buying. I would like to say that I have not been the victim of such from this site. I have however been the victim of several gameboy advance games elsewhere. This system has a lot of counterfeit or bootleg carts that are quite difficult sometimes to tell the difference between an original item. I think the free market on this forum will keep everything done correctly for members anyway.

[fcgamer]

I suppose a rule doesn't need to be in place given that this is a small community and there exists a feedback system in place if an item isn't what you thought you were buying. I would like to say that I have not been the victim of such from this site. I have however been the victim of several gameboy advance games elsewhere. This system has a lot of counterfeit or bootleg carts that are quite difficult sometimes to tell the difference between an original item. I think the free market on this forum will keep everything done correctly for members anyway.

Well GBA bootlegs vs Famicom bootlegs is like apples to oranges.  In addition, since we are on a Famicom board here, I honestly think that most of the items being sold here are Famicom-related, making the GBA worry not so high.  Just my opinion anyways.

[hvc01]

Agreed. Not many GBA carts sold on here. Well I've said my piece.

I'm licensed original games all the way

[MaxXimus]

More power to you my friend. I like all the crazy labels you can find on pirated cartridges, as well as sprite hacks and other quirky things like that.

[hvc01]

More power to you 

[number47]

In my humble opinion it's ok to sell and buy oldschool bootlegs and FDS ports like whirlwind and Kaiser.
Maybe also newer repros of romhacks that are funny (Megaman in the Mushroom Kingdom, Super Shrek Bros. or Mega Fag) or ridiculously hard and like Dark Gimmick or Rockman No Constancy. In that case I would like to see the word "repro" somewhere in the topic.

I wouldn't buy (or sell) repros of rare titles or modern chinese massproduction $2 cartridges for $10 each.

[L___E___T]

I don't think you can say some repros are ok to be sold and some not.

Likewise but less so, I don't think you can say bootlegs are ok to be sold and repros not.

I think you CAN say an unethical Buy / Sell / Trade post has grounds to be removed.  The focus is then on what part is unethical and to what degree.

If someone advertised glob-top Gimmicks in a replica clamshell case advertised with full sound for $200 you can be sure it would be looked at very carefully.

However some repros, while irksome and cringing to see, aren't really doing anything more now than bootlegs were doing 20 years ago.  If you say bootlegs are ok now, then repros surely are ok in 20~ years' time - and if that is true, doesn't that mean their existence is essentially also ok today?  
The problems tend to be with SOME repros and not all - and in those cases the problem tends to be a question of ethics around the circumstances of the repro in the spotlight, not that it is a repro specifically.

For example, there are lots of repros on eBay not stated clearly that they are fakes/replicas/disguises.  That stinks, but I haven't seen anything like that pulled over here or on NA.