Has anybody modded NES controller ports to teh front of a Famicom before?

[P]

I'm not sure you understand what this mod does Satoshi Matrix. From what I understand it only turns the Four Score into an expansion port multitap using port 1 and 2 (so they will work like controller III and IV) of the Four Score. Port 3 and 4 won't work for anything.

It is not possible to play games that requires the Four Score by connecting it via the expansion port as the data pins for controller I and II are not available there. If you look in the comments of the video he even says "Four Score is not compatible with Famicom so it only supports two players" (although that's not entirely true as the Four Score should work through the controller I and II port inside the Famicom).

The Four Score works by multiplexing (sending two controllers' data through the same pin serially) so in theory it should be possible to use port 3 and 4 as well, but of course no game does that (unless that's how the Hori multitap works). Edit: Actually as it turns out that is exactly how the Hori multitap works. See below.

Micro Mages seems to require either the Four Score or the Hori multitap for 4-player mode so this mod possibly doesn't work at all with that game (although they are not entirely clear about this).

[satoshi_matrix]

Ohh yes you re quite correct, I did have a misunderstanding of how it works.

So post performing this mod, it would work like this?

Player 1: Controller 1 permanently attached controller
Player 2: Controller 2 permanently attached controller w/ Mic
Player 3: Four Score controller port 1
Player 4: Four Score controller port 2

and then Four Score controller port 3 and 4 not assigned to anything.

If that's correct, then why did you say that a Neo-Geo extension cable will do me no good? As far as I'm aware, the only way to get more than two controllers working on a Famicom is through the expansion port. Please clarify.
Post Merge: April 25, 2019, 05:30:52 pm

Not my video but he does the same mod.   

Oh, whoops. Sorry! but it would be helpful if you could take some photos of how you have yours wired. My goal is to get four players on Famicom. P explains that the mod will only provide player 3 and 4 via the four score, and Player 1 and 2 still come from the permanently attached controllers. Fair enough, if that's how it needs to be that's fine. I just need some help being walked through how to actually do that.

[P]

Yes and no. Yes you will be able to use the Four Score port 1 and 2 as player 3 and 4 in games that looks for these controllers but you won't be able to play games that requires a real unmodded Four Score, and Micro Mages seems to do that. The Famicom/NES doesn't really have a system to "assign" controllers to anything, they just have different ways they expect games to read them and uses different input port pins. There are more than just 4 types of controllers for Famicom/NES (there are actually 6 valid types if we ignore the Hori multitap) and different games looks for different types.




There's just too much misinformation and faulty assumptions regarding how this all works so I'll just explain it in a way that's easy to understand. A picture says more than a thousand words so it's time for some crude paint art:



In the above image there are 8 types of controllers including the 2 invalid ones:

Con I
The first internal controller. On NES the port is on the outside so it's easier to detach but on Famicom you need to open the case to detach it. The first port on (unmodded) NES multitaps (Four Score or NES Satellite) are mapped directly to port 1 so any controller connected to that will act like Con I.

Con II
The second internal controller. Similar to Con I it's connected externally on the NES. The Famicom version is missing START and SELECT buttons and always reports those as being unpressed. The Famicom version also houses a microphone, but let's for simplicity's sake pretend that's a separate device. The second port on (unmodded) NES multitaps (Four Score or NES Satellite) are mapped directly to port 2 so any controller connected to that will act like Con II.

Mic
It shares the same cable as Con II in the Famicom but it works fine separately and uses its own wire inside the cable.

Con III A
This is the external controller on a Famicom that you connect to the 15-pin expansion port. Many games, but not all, uses it as an alternative to Con I in case that controller is broken. Other games uses it for player 3. To connect this to a NES, an ENIO or similar adapter is needed which connects to the NES expansion port on the underside.

Con IV A
This is a second external controller that is connected to the 15-pin expansion port. Just like Con III A, this controller is often used as an alternative to Con II in case that's broken. Other games uses it for player 4. In order to connect it, a special adapter is needed. Some external Famicom controllers comes with such an adapter built-in via a second 15-pin port on the controller itself. They may also come with a switch so you can choose if the external controller should act like Con III A or Con IV A. To connect this to a NES, an ENIO or similar adapter is needed which connects to the NES expansion port on the underside.

Con III B
Any controller that are connected to port 3 of an (unmodded) NES multitap will become Con III B. Certain (NES) games uses this for player 3 but it is different from the Con III A which is connected to the expansion port (on both Famicom and NES). Most games will ignore this controller. In order to connect it to a Famicom, the NES multitap must be connected to the internal ports inside the Famicom.

Con IV B
Any controller that are connected to port 4 of an (unmodded) NES multitap will become Con IV B. Certain (NES) games uses this for player 4 but it is different from the Con IV A which is connected to the expansion port (on both Famicom and NES). Most games will ignore this controller. In order to connect it to a Famicom, the NES multitap must be connected to the internal ports inside the Famicom.

Con III C
This is the controller that happens in port 3 of a NES multitap that's modded to connect to the Famicom's 15-pin expansion port (or ENIO on NES). Although it is technically possible for a game to use this controller, there are no games that does as far as I know, since the NES multitap is not supposed to be used on a Famicom's expansion port. Edit: Actually the Hori adapter uses this controller.

Con IV C
This is the controller that happens in port 4 of a NES multitap that's modded to connect to the Famicom's 15-pin expansion port (or ENIO on NES). Same applies as Con III C. This controller is unused by games. Edit: It's used by the Hori adapter, see bellow.

Note: The Hori multitap is not included here because I don't know how it works.
Edit: The Hori multitap is described here. Basically it is like the Four Score but connected to the expansion port and the signature used to detect it is different, so the Four Score would need to be modded to act like the Hori adapter in setup 4 of the above diagram.


In the above image there are also 5 types of system setups:

1) Famicom Setup
This is the normal setup with two external controllers. The fourth controller needs some kind of adapter to connect.
Many games supports all four controllers.

2) NES Setup
NES has no expansion port so only 2 controllers can be connected without some kind of adapter. The two controllers are exactly the same as the two internal controllers on a Famicom, it's just that the ports are on the outside of the console.

3) NES Setup (with NES multitap)
Using an unmodded Four Score you can connect 4 controllers. But controllers in port 3/4 will become Con III/IV B instead of A, so this won't work with most 4-player Famicom games. Micro Mages seems to be using this setup for 4 players.

4) Famicom Setup (with NES multitap in EXP)
This is the mod that Ericj made. You can play 4-player Famicom games that looks for Con III/IV A with this but not games that requires the unmodded Four Score (Con III/IV B). Port 3 and 4 in the multitap are unused by games.

5) Famicom Setup (with NES multitap in port I/II)
This is the setup I suggested. By connecting the Four Score to the Con I and II ports, just like it's normally connected to a NES, you should will be able to use the Four Score as intended, even on a Famicom. Since the expansion port is still available it is technically possible to connect all 6 types of valid controllers (Con I, Con II, Con III A, Con IV A, Con III B and Con IV B) at the same time. The microphone must be wired separately as there is no connection for it in the Four Score.

Edit: Fixed the attached image.
Edit: Updated with new info about the Hori multitap.

[satoshi_matrix]

Thanks for explaining this.

Option 5 would require removal of the two permanently attached controllers and hard wiring the Four Score directly to the Famicom's internal controller pins. That's not an option I want to do for several reasons including aesthetics and the simple fact I want the use of the permanently attached controllers. Otherwise, I might as well use my AV Famicom which natively supports an unmodified Four Score.

From the looks of it, I need instructions for modifying the four score for Option 4 on your diagram, which retains player 1 and 2 on the permanently attached controllers and puts 3 and 4 on the Four Score ports 1 and 2.

[P]

Well option 5 requires you to somehow connect your Four Score to the internal controller connectors on the Famicom PCB, not necessarily permanently attaching it. You could attach connectors to it and make it modular so nothing needs to be permanently attached, but that might be a lot of work and maybe not problem free with all the connectors and adapters needed for both the Four Score and the internal controllers. But it is the only way to connect a Four Score to a Famicom.

Option 4 is what you have been asking for all this time, and I told you many times it will not work with Four Score games like Micro Mages. These games requires the following controllers from my diagrams:
Player 1: Con I
Player 2: Con II
Player 3: Con III B
Player 4: Con IV B

Con III/IV B are only possible with option 3 and 5. Not option 4.

If you have an NTSC NES or AV Famicom I don't see why you want to destroy your Four Score. If you just want to be able to connect two controllers to the expansion port (option 1) all you need is two Neo-Geo extension cables or two NES extension cables and one Neo-Geo extension cable and build a simple adapter. You can't play Four Score games with that either of course.

[satoshi_matrix]

Essentially what I'm looking for is to turn option 4 into option 1, have two controllers come out the expansion port.

The reason I'm willing to do this with the Four Score is because I have an extra four score from thrifting, it has the NES female plugs I need.

I've emailed the creators of micro mages and sent them your diagram. Hopefully they will respond and let me know what they recommend. Option 1 should work, but option 1 requires daisy chaining certain controllers. it's kind of messy and it requires very specific controller that even have the option to daisy chain. This is another reason I'd like to use the Four Score.

[P]

Essentially what I'm looking for is to turn option 4 into option 1, have two controllers come out the expansion port.

Option 1 and 4 both support Con III/IV A so you can play games like the Famicom version of Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball-bu, but no Four Score games of course. I hope you understand that the 4-player mode in Micro Mages is included in "Four Score games" so you won't be playing that using these two setups.
I'm curious to hear what the creators say though. I'd also love to hear how the Hori adapter works as it seems to be using magic.

The reason I'm willing to do this with the Four Score is because I have an extra four score from thrifting, it has the NES female plugs I need.

Fair enough. I'm not sure how the mod is done though so better ask Ericj for the details.

Option 1 should work, but option 1 requires daisy chaining certain controllers. it's kind of messy and it requires very specific controller that even have the option to daisy chain. This is another reason I'd like to use the Four Score.

It should work with what? As I said it only works with games that uses Con III/IV A, like Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball-bu, and not with games that uses Con III/IV B, like Micro Mages. I hope that's clear.
And it doesn't require daisy chaining if you build an adapter (which is probably easier to build than modding the Four Score). That would allow you to use any standard NES controller as Con III/IV A, and also certain things like a NES Zapper in the second port (heck you can even build adapters for SFC or Virtual Boy controllers as they use the same protocol as the Famicom controllers, they will have a bunch of additional unused buttons though).
Post Merge: April 29, 2019, 12:48:59 pm
Thinking over it, it's possible that the authors of Micro Mages said Hori 4-player adapter when they really meant the standard expansion port setup. Wikipedia mixes them up and lists a bunch of games that are not compatible with the Hori adapter, like Nekketsu Dodgeball.

If this is the case, Micro Mages would work with setup 1 and 4 in the diagram. But by just judging by their kickstarter page it shouldn't.
Please let us know what they have to say when they answer your e-mail.

[satoshi_matrix]

from the micro mages manual:


https://66.media.tumblr.com/7760c16c6569ceccef0f05f42a4a9b63/tumblr_pqu6eunGei1rc7qlzo1_1280.png


Post Merge: May 01, 2019, 12:33:58 pm
Today, the Micro Mages rom was released to backers, so I fired it up on my N8 and tested out the multiplayer.

on my Twin Famicom, by default it works like this:


Player 1: permanently attached player 1 controller
Player 2: permanently attached player 2 controller
Player 3: DB-15 Expansion port
Player 4: Daisy chained controller from player 3 controller

Given this and the diagram in the manual, an NES Four Score mod that uses the first two controller ports is considered valid by the game, so diagram #4 that P made is applicable.

So I need to know where to solder what wires to on my NES Four Score to make it DB-15 compatible and work with Micro Mages on my Famicom like this.

[FAMICOM_87]

I know that SNES and NES controllers are compatible , so can The Hudson Super MultiTap - SNES be plugged to the Famicom with just rewiring ? 

[P]

I also got a reply from Micro Mages and the news is that it does support both the standard 4-player way (setup 1 and 4 in my diagrams) and the Hori 4-player Adapter's unique protocol (not included in the diagram). The reason only the Hori adapter is mentioned on the kickstarter page and in the manual was due to a misunderstanding. Micro Mages uses the expansion controllers (Con III/IV A) as duplicated player 1/2 in 1-player/2-player modes and as player 3/4 in 3-player/4-player modes. The manual states that you need to turn on the 2P/4P switch on the Hori adapter but doing that is only to enable the second pair of ports on it, which Micro Mages uses as duplicated player 1/2 in 3-player/4-player modes. The first two ports will always work no matter what state the switch is in.

The Hori adapter is actually a Famicom version of the Four Score and works the same way, only that it connects to the expansion port instead of the internal ports and it has a different signature used to detect it. Long story short: Con III C and Con IV C in setup 4 are actually valid and used by the Hori adapter. But as it has a different signature than the Four Score (it's actually the same signature but reversed, a strong hint that both adapters are made by the same people) the Four Score can't be used without modding it to send the correct signature or games won't be able to detect it. The first pair of ports can always be used though since it also acts like a standard Famicom multitap (setup 1 in the diagram). Technically the Hori adapter is a 6 controller adapter because it adds 4 additional controllers to the 2 internal ones, but the intention is probably to be able to use 4 replaceable controllers (in case the internal ones are broken) and all games (Wit's, US Championship V'Ball, Downtown Nekketsu Koshinkyoku and Micro Mages are all games I know that supports it) seems to only support 4 players and just duplicates two of the ports so they work like the internal ports.

I know that SNES and NES controllers are compatible , so can The Hudson Super MultiTap - SNES be plugged to the Famicom with just rewiring ?  

The SFC multitap kind of works in a similar way to the Four Score/Hori 4-player Adapter in the sense that it reads controllers 2 to 5 serially, but it doesn't work exactly the same and also uses an output pin to switch between reading controller 2/3 and 4/5. I guess it's not impossible to mod it to act like Four Score or Hori 4-player Adapter (ignoring port 5), but I have no idea how.
If one were to develop a new game that uses the native protocol, I guess the Famicom/NES controller ports cannot be used, because it needs an output pin, but it can probably be used in the expansion port on both Famicom and NES.

[MWK]

The Hori adapter is actually a Famicom version of the Four Score and works the same way, only that it connects to the expansion port instead of the internal ports and it has a different signature used to detect it.

Exactly P, that's why different games acts differently depends on which device has been plugged in, however it is still up to programmers to deal with coding the signals correctly.

Here is a Hori internal pinouts and stuff thanks to our good ol' Polish engineer dic-sc7 from our ContraBanda crew:

[P]

Ah yes thanks to him the Hori adapter protocol was added to the nesdev wiki.


The question is how they port-swapped the signature as Hori apparently didn't just swap the pins of the chip.

[boye]

I think OP's talking about replacing the built in-controllers with ports for NES controllers.

[P]

Yes you are right, back in 2010. The discussion have changed many times since then.

[relo]

Can't you just cut traces of the extension port to internalize the mod in option 5, soldering the internal controller ports to the expansion port? Of course you'd want to keep/rewire certain traces like Ground, VCC, Latch, D3 and D4. I believe this way you can get the fourscore to work on the famicom without there being a need for visible external mods. And at that point you'd also be modding the 4 score, you can add connections for the light gun.

If certain traces are chosen, I can imagine being able to keep a lot of compatibility with famicom peripherals as well. From the top of my head the internal controller ports have 10 connections total, 4 of which are ground and vcc, possibly latch for both as well are already on the expansion port (and possibly others that I'm unaware off). meaning you'd only need to find the 6 or less least used connections on the famicom expansion port to cut the traces of to maximize the use of famicom peripherals. Personally I'd vote for connections that are almost exclusively used for regular famicom controllers replacements and peripherals for very unpopular games (like the Majong controller and keyboard).

Though my knowledge on the uses of the famicom expansion port use is very limited, so at best I can make educated guesses.