Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.

[Hamburglar]

I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?

[nintendodork]

When you say "SMB2," do you mean the NES cartridge of Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA)? As far as I know, I don't think any NES game being played on a Famicom will work with a controller in the expansion port.

[Hamburglar]

Yes, I meant NES Super Mario 2. Pretty much every US NES game in my collection connected through a converter to my AV and regular Famicom work with my Joycard Sansui.
The only one that does not work is US NES Super Mario 2. and Famicom Super Mario USA, Doki Doki FDS works fine.

[jpx72]

That's strange, it should work, but maybe the game has something to prevent using front exp connector...(to prevent using turbo buttons?)
This find can be interesting even at nesdev forums

[cmv2]

I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?

some times the controller on the  expansion port, work for player 2 no for player 1

[Hamburglar]

I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?

some times the controller on the  expansion port, work for player 2 no for player 1

What games? The pad would have to be wired for player 2 (I've connected 2 NES pads to the EXP port with an adapter I made)  I know some games will see pads connected to the EXP port as P3 and P4.

[Xious]

Player-I & Player-II controls via the EXP port work on a different register than the built-in joycards. If the game does not read these registers, then it won't respond to input from them...

This is why I want original controllers for my C1, as some games won't simply run with an EXP controller. I recall running into a few that will work from an EXP controller, but require you to press 'Start' on the built-in controller. Sorry, I never made a list of these games. 

[P]

So if I connect NES controllers through the EXP port (with a homemade adapter) they will just be seen as Controller I EXP and Controller II EXP? I can't use it for NES games that requires you to press start on Controller II (which of course the original Famicom doesn't have)?

Also as 4 player NES games requires a Fourscore or NES Satelite, you can't connect these peripherals through the EXP port?

[Xious]

This again, depends greatly on the game. If the game is reading the EXP registers, it should detect the button presses, but if it was programmed in a way that it does not read them, then they won't work. The only way to find out is to try EXP controllers with every game.

Yawn... I feel alseep.

The FC EXP port has a lot of $4017 registers available, but only a few $4016 registers. This document may be helpful.  

Available connections, signals, registers & associated data bits are as follows (from my NESpander documentation, based on Kevin Horton's notes and NESDev Wiki articles):

FC DA-15                                           NES 48-Pin DSub EXP

1 - Ground                                           2 - Ground
2 - Sound Output                                 21 - Audio Out
3 - IRQ                                                  14 - /IRQ
4 - Port #1 (D4) 4017R.4                    18 - Joypad #2 (D4)
5 - Port #1 (D3) 4017R.3                    16 - Joypad #2 (D3)
6 - Port #1 (D2) 4017R.2                    15 - Joypad #2 (D2)
7 - Port #1 (D1) 4017R.1                    20 - Joypad #2 (D1)
8 - Port #1 (D0) 4017R.0                    19 - Joypad #2 (D0)
9 - Port #1 CLK 4017R.E                   11 - /OE Joypad #2
10 - Out2 4016WR.2                           45 - Out2
11 - Out1 4016WR.1                           44 - Out1
12 - Out0 4016WR.0                           43 - Out0
13 - Port #0 (D1) 4016R.1                  12 - Joypad #1 D1
14 - Port #0 CLK        4016R.E          37 - /OE Joypad #1
15 - +5VDC                                        1 - +5VDC (Out)

Note the lack of $4016.D0 on the Famicom port.

As Controller-II is normally read via $4017, I think you will be fine, for you have reads at D0-D4, plus standard /OE (strobe). I'm not sure if it's purely the lack of D0 causes problems with Player-I controller on some games, or if it is a bus / sharing conflict. D0 is normally used for Controller-I data, so I presume this is (at least) part of the problem, but again, you shouldn't have problems with Controller-II.

From what I've read, this design seems to be intentional; to prevent read conflicts with the built-in controllers.

[punkpolitical]

Wiring the FourScore for player one and two works just fine.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4906.msg79268#msg79268

[P]

Is that mod to get 3- or 4-player Famicom games to work with the fourscore? What about NES games? As I understand it they already work if you just make a simple adapter with extension cables and connect the Fourscore without modifying it.

That way you can play 4-player NES games with the fourscore and adapter, and play 3- and 4-player Famicom games by connecting third party Famicom controllers through the EXP port.
Is this correct?

[Xious]

@ punkpolitical That wouldn't solve the problem discussed in this thread though: Games that don't work with EXP controllers won't work with a multi-tap either. Again, this primarily causes problems with Player-I controllers via the EXP port, but P-II controllers should not have any problems if wired to an EXP connector, at least in regard to games that require 'Start'-button presses on P-II.

@P Absolutely correct: The FourScore conversion, as illustrated in the linked thread, will permit the use of Multi-Tap Famicom games--but not 4-player NES games--on the Famicom. It is possible to modify the unit for the latter in place of FC multi-player titles, which requires building a cable converter; this is all discussed in detail somewhere on the forum.

Player-III through a theoretical Player-V are possible via a multi-tap device; I don't recall if any 5-player titles were released for the system, although I recall 5P-games for the SFC.

[P]

Thanks allot Xious! I'm trying to figure out if it is possible to play all games and accessories for Famicom and NES on a Famicom.

The only games I know that requires you to press start on controller II is games that were made in USA or Europe. For example the four player game R.C. Pro-Am II requires each player to join by pressing start, meaning you can't even play two player on the original Famicom with just the built in controllers. Would NES games detect these controllers in the EXP port on a Famicom?

And about the Fourscore just to make things clear. If you don't modify the fourscore at all you can only play 3/4-player NES games with it on a Famicom if you wire it to the EXP port. Is this correct? Sorry for bothering so much.

Player-V? That's intresting. Yes there are Bomberman games for SFC that supports 5 player but I never heard of such for Famicom... Maybe something for homebrew developers.

[Xious]

Five-player is easily possible on the hardware, even if it had never been done; I suppose you could go as high as seven-player without additional hardware, using a standard 8-button controller. (Games that need fewer buttons can also split controllers; if only four buttons are in use, you can double the number of devices with the same inputs by mapping the additional buttons to a second device.)

In theory, you could further increase the range by multiplexing the signals and adding signatures, such as those used on the FourScore, but I expect that things would begin to break down at that point, with the system strobing and reading from that many devices, plus waiting for device signature bits. I do think the notion of a 12-player game is fantastic, but ultimately neither realistic, nor conducive to the safe operation of the hardware.

Again, this is mostly in theory. I think that some Mah'Jong controllers may have made use of this type of function, or its reverse, but I never studied them to deduce how they work. I recall seeing a set of 'Game Show Buzzer' style controllers at one point or another, and I think these were wired in pairs for the system, or wired in groups of four or five or something.

Most multi-player games are esoteric titles that permit single-screen actions from many people. These are generally trivia, top-down racing, and gambling titles; a few action titles exist, but these are as rare as hens' teeth (in terms of publishing, not actual game rarity). Of course, it is also possible to make a multi-player alternating game, but these were avoided for a variety of reasons. Honestly, I can see a 4-P SMB type game working, although players may get bored after a while of watching the best of the group sail through levels without death. (This is one reason that 4/5P alternating games were never en vogue.)

To answer your main question: Yes, the FourScore (unmodified), but wired to the FC should work for USA multiplayer games, such as 'RC Pro-Am II' and (...groan...) 'Friday the 13th'.

As I recall, the FourScore and Satellite use both $4017 and $4016 for reads, with $4016 for Player-I & Player-III and $4017 for Player-II & Player-IV. It multiplexes the signal and the system must make additional reads on each register to get the values of button presses on all four controllers. As the range of $4016 is limited, I don't know with certainty what will happen to Player-I and player-III on NES multiplayer games. It would be simpler if Player-I/II were $4016 and Player III/IV were $4017, but this is not the case. Actually, perhaps this ends up being nicer, as it does still ensure that Player-II will have a working set of Start/Select buttons.

It should (in theory work correctly; as a last-resort, it is also possible to wire a NES FourScore to the FC logic board (internally), if you find that some US/EU games won't cooperate.  If a game doesn't work on FC hardware because of this type of problem ('Start' button required), you can mark it down as a programming fault, although there are rare exceptions of games that actually use all eight buttons for in-game functions, and in these cases, external controllers become a necessity.

Honestly, I still feel like making an external microphone as well, but that apparently interests no-one but myself.

P.S. This article is another good resource on how the EXP port works, along with EXP controllers, and why $4016.D1 is present where D0 is not present.

P.P.S. Apparently I've reached No. 700 as well. 

[P]

Thank you! I've read the article and I think I kind of understand most of it, haha!
But it's a good thing because this seems to me that a Famicom can do everything a NES can do (and more) with adapters that aren't very hard to make. One problem would be PAL NES games that are sped up to play at the right speed in 50Hz as they will play too fast on a Famicom. One would have to get a PAL NES for that or maybe somehow use the slow function on a Hong Kong Famicom. I don't have any NES games anymore though.

So these mahjong games or whatever could theoretically be played with external controllers if they just map the buttons to these addresses, though it wouldn't be convenient to remember what button is what. But I guess the mahjong controllers uses a signature that the game is looking for so it can't be played without the special controller.

Intresting that there seems to be official games like Super Spike V'Ball that supports both the Famicom and the NES method for four players.


External microphone? How would you do that? Maybe connecting a microphone with a volume slider to the EXP port and map it to the Controller II microphone? It would be good for AV-Famicom that doesn't have one or maybe a NES version. It could also be usefull if the Controller II microphone breaks which it seems to do quite often. I'm not sure mine works.