Making an Earthbound famicom repro, EPROM suggestions?

[famiac]

Can anyone point me towards any EPROMS that can easily replace the ones in a Mother cartridge? and if possible instructions on where to rewire the pins because its probably improbable that they have the same pinout as the nintendo chips, or an MMC3 famicom cartridge diagram would be nice.
Thanks!

[NintendoKing]

I think it's mega cool that people are converting Mother cartridges into Earthbound Zero.

[jpx72]

I don't think it's cool, people should use more common cartridges to destroy. There are tons of MMC3 carts that can be converted to Earthbound. Original Mother (J) is sooo beautiful cartridge and doesn't deserve to be ruined...

Here's a list of possible donors:
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/search.php?unif=HVC-TKROM
I'm sure there are more common/shitty carts to do the job just right!

[manuel]

I second what jpx72 said. 

[P]

Me too! Please don't harm any more Mother cartridges.

[lobdale]

Is it really... harming the cartridge to remove a ROM chip and replace it with an identical ROM chip with an essentially identical version of the same game on it, in a different language?

[P]

Yes of course it is. And it's not identical, there were a lot of changes made and a different language is a big change in it self. The Earthbound prototype is very cool but it would make much more sense to use a cheaper cartridge and make a new label, than making the Mother cart more rare and more expensive by making changes to it.

[jpx72]

Of course! Have you ever seen a repro from inside?
There is no such thing as a ROM with Earthbound on it. You have to replace it with an EPROM.
Just desoldering original ROMs can kill the PCB when done by a non proffesional. Then inserting EPROMs which have different pinout requires a lot of extra wires and slodering and CUTTING into the PCB itself.
The modified PCB is then closed to the plastic case to cover the mess.
It's like opening a Famicom and inserting some cheap-ass clone inside. It works the same, but you know it isn't.
You destroy the original cartridge and make somehting that ...just isn't original. Has no real collectorsr value.
Even better parable: it's like a burned CD. You can put it in the original box, but everybody will know it's not the same..

This is an original mother PCB:


and this is Earthbound repro:


...it should scare you!

[Xious]

I have to disagree on the following grounds:

Modifying 'Mother' is possible in a noninvasive manner, and can be reversed, assuming you are skilled enough to perform the operation. You can float & jumper pins rather than cutting traces.
'Mother' is not a rare title, with a Rarity Index rating of around 4.5-5.0; around the same as other TK-ROM games, so depleting it from the population is not any less severe than other titles. Only its popularity makes it more valuable.

Frankly, I would be more interested if there was a T-ENG IPS for the game, rather than the NES prototype, which has flaws.

If you do burn a new ROM-set for it, I recall it possible to make drop-in replacements. It may also be fun to modify the start-up screen, replacing the nonsensical 'Earthbound Zero' title with the 'Mother' title from the original game... Information on the ROM pinouts is in the NESDev Wiki repository.  Be sure to save and store the original ROMs in a safe (and static guarded) area.

You could also lift the MMC3 mapper IC with a reflow station and re-solder it on a custom PCB. You would, of course, need to design and fabricate a custom PCB for this job, but that isn't a difficult process.

[P]

I still think it would be better to take a less popular title that is less likely to become rare in the future. Of course if everyone took that same title it could become rare because of that. One have to be careful which title one chooses as donor.

I suspect many people wouldn't care and just throw the original rom in the trash as they have no use for it, thus effectively removing it forever.

[famiac]

Is it really... harming the cartridge to remove a ROM chip and replace it with an identical ROM chip with an essentially identical version of the same game on it, in a different language?

No it isnt at all, plus im not ruining the cart at all, and the cart itself isnt rare.

Thanks guys!

Also: is it possible to use a 16kb prg nrom game to make a repro of a 32kb prg nrom game?
And how would you wire the chips/what chips do you need?

[Xious]

A 16K PCB? I don't know of any reason that would make a difference, and I don't recall there being more than one PCB layout: NROM is un-mapped and the only thing you can select is the mirroring; unless maybe the NROM-256 has additional connections to the system game bus, but I don't remember such.

Here is one reference to start you on your journey and this is a guide with more detail (what you want is in Step-9 and above--I can't believe this guy cuts the leads off the ICs with a wheel, when all you need is a simple de-soldering tool to preserve the original ROMs.).

[jpx72]

Not rare? If it's a game that any Famicom cart collector wants, then it's rare!
It has been told much about repro making on many forums and it always ended with a fight.

Okay, not rare. But Mother is a very nice and sought after cart. So go on and destroy its originality. Good luck.

[lobdale]

There're millions upon millions of Mother carts out there, seriously. 

Well... Wikipedia says it sold 400K in Japan.  SO MAYBE NOT THAT MANY

Still, I see it often. 
Post Merge: November 02, 2011, 03:24:33 pm

Frankly, I would be more interested if there was a T-ENG IPS for the game, rather than the NES prototype, which has flaws.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  The old translation is a little stiff and has a few typos, though that exact data is probably virtually identical to what we'd have actually gotten in America.  And there are actually several improvements to the game as well, most notably the addition of the B-button run.  Still, I'd love to see an actual translated version of the Japanese game done up by the community.  I worked on For the Frog the Bell Tolls not long ago, which had a lot of tricky space constraints, and it was a challenge... I hear Mother's programming is an absolute nightmare for ROM hackers.

[Xious]

Indeed, 400,000 sounds somewhere between 'about right' and 'possibly a little high'. Compare that to 'Dragon Quest' sales numbers and you'll understand what I mean. Famicom = RPG Craze, so most RPGs are fairly common to absurdly common.

Desirability doesn't equal rarity. In fact, there are games on the suggested donor list that are in fact much more scarce than 'Mother' It is merely the popularity of the game that makes it desirable. As I said, it is not difficult to change the ROMs without making any permanent change to the PCB, which is likely the route that will be used by famiac.

Would you or anyone else blink twice if I modified 'Final Fantasy' II & III with T-ENG ROMs? Popular RPGs, especially loose (no box, no manual) are common as dirt in Nippon. Not in the rest of the world, certainly, but I probably have a dozen copies of every 'FF' and 'DQ' game on hand--dozens of each title--and a few copies of 'Mother'. Of these, outside Nippon, 'Mother' carries a premium price tag, especially complete, but almost any popular title does the same.

For example, 'Super Mario Bros.' sells for between US$10 and US$25 loose in the US, because it is a popular game In fact, even the NES version of 'Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt', the singular most common NES title commands US$15 on average from local dealers (which is insane) because people will pay that much.

'The Legend of Zelda' often sells for US$20 to US$25 in local shoppes, as a loose cartridge, because people love its golden-y goodness: The grey version sells for less, but is actually rarer. In collecting terms, rarity is based on a combination of number produced and market availability (the population). Price is usually based on rarity, and influenced (upward only) by demand and popularity. the video game market at present is bonkers, as people are paying obscene prices for Rairty-1.0 to Rarity-2.0 games, but won't dish out the same amount for titles that should sell for three to five times as much based on their rarity index. That too, shall change in time.

The lesson here is not to judge a game as 'too valuable to modify' based on market demand, but rather on actual rarity. In time to come, that is what will matter. I don't like selling sealed items to people if I know they plan to open and play with them, as that to me is disgraceful, but I cant tell people what to do with the things that they buy, and in the long-term, when items are taken out of circulation by one means or another, it is only improving the value of collections because it is increasing scarcity of those items, so my investment--and consequently your investment(s)--are increasing in value as the population lowers.

I have one customer that bought dozens of sealed FDS games from another vendor, some uncommon and rarer titles, who opened all of them to play, as he thought they'd play better than a used disk (which is a fallacy). I was disturbed by this, as I collect games by grade, and I love sealed display copies, well, for display, so now there were forty less sealed FDS games in the world, and I've happily traded good working copies plus some extras for the sealed versions, and tagged a warranty onto them for good measure. Alas, I was too late. He opened them, and now they're gone. I have no doubt that when some customers buy sealed FDS titles from me, invariable, some of them will open them to play. In the case of games such as 'Metroid', this doesn't matter: I can buy as many sealed copies of that title as I want.

I have problems getting other titles that are otherwise only Rarity-5.0 sealed, or even ANS, but some are in huge supply as a stockpile of them was found. I won't reveal which titles are very common: That's going into the book, but there are a few of them that are as easy to buy sealed as they would be loose (disk-only). Additionally, many FDS titles that are less common or even rare are often overwritten with common, but more popular games. Not many people buy 'Pachi Com'  (Rarity-6.0) to play, and those who find they have a copy and aren't aware of its rarity often overwrite it with 'Super Mario Bros. 2' (Rarity-3.0/3.5)...

(Keep in mind that the rarity index is relative to all games for the system, so for the Famicom, FDS titles are always rarer that the most common cassette/cartridge releases.)

For the record, the most common title for the FC is 'Golf': This applies equally to the FDS (Rarity-1.5) and cassette (Rarity-1.0) form. Yes, it is the most common title in both formats, yet, people would first overwrite 'Druid: Kyōfu no Tobira' as they would either find it too difficult to play, or simply not fun enough, and 'Druid' is a Rarity-3.5 title. 'Mahjong' is actually more scarce than 'Golf', but it is targeted first for re-writing, as less people desire to play it, and only collectors buy it outside of Nippon.

Even so, I hold the opinion that no person has the right to instruct others in how they should run their lives, or what they should do with their possessions. Until something in unique--aside from on a molecular level--and thus an invaluable piece of history, it's honestly the business of no man to instruct its owner or custodian in how to care for it.

Think of it this way: You like modifying and working on the VCCI-REV-02x Famicom system mainboards. Those are far rarer than the Rev-07 (by a factor of about 11-to-1), but that doesn't stop you from working on them... (They're about as common as the 'New Famicom (A/V)' system...in case you are wondering.)

This is no different: Only the scale changes, and again in a negligible manner. I have games in my collection (including FC titles) with a population less than 1,000, some less than 100; and one with a known population of less than 10, with mine actually being the finest known example (NOS-97+). Obviously, if I saw someone making something out of a game like those, I'd be horrified, and I'd warn them of what they're doing--in case they are unaware--but in the end, by destroying one of these games, they'd be increasing the value of the ones that I own, as they are knocking out 1% or more of the population of that item.

Obviously, in terms of scale, a game such as 'Mother' with an expected population of around 300,000 is reasonable common (thus having a rarity index ranging around 3.5 to 4.0), so removing a few here and there is un-noticed, especially with an alteration like this, where you can revert to the original game without harming the value of the item.

If you don't cut traces, but instead lift the leads and solder them via jumpers (as I would do), then the transformation can be completely reversed, requiring magnification to detect that the solder pads had ever been altered, and in the case of a common title, it wouldn't affect the value, although a complete game may take a slight hit if it is known to be modified, which is why you use a lower-grade (lower condition) game when doing this sort of thing ...

What is more, with a little extra effort, you could socket the ROMs or with a tad more effort, put both sets on a switch to select either the EU/US or JP version.

Nothing in this operation can't be undone, so it doesn't devalue the game--In fact, in some circles--primarily the collectors who collect in order to play games, rather than completionists and pure collectors--it actually increases the value of the loose game cassette as they can now play the game in their native (or an understood) language--and you can always revert to the original ROMs without anyone being much the wiser if necessary.

I sincerely doubt that the average person opens (or will ever open) games to inspect if they've been modified or repaired when they buy them, unless they are buying a Rarity-8.0 or above title.

I have not yet completed my Famicom rarity index for cassette games, though I have completed the FDS list and I have most of the FC game library indexed. I do still have to index hardware and accessories, but I have a good amount of the work done, and some yet to be compiled, but referenced. When it comes to actual, licensed games, I doubt many people are as aware of rarity datum as myself. This isn't meant to be a boast, just a fact, as I was asked by an author to do this section of his book and I have been researching the subject thoroughly. I may not know about some of the esoteric Asian releases, such as HK or Asian market items, as I simply have little reliable datum on these subjects, and no citable sources of it, but for actual Japan-released items, I know quite a lot.

'Mother' simply is not a rare game. Sorry, I wish it were, but 'tisn't.