Help my Famiclone "Subor D21" (AV fix & overclock)

[famifan]

But i will order and try the 21.47727 MHz crystal. Witch will take some weeks.. And replace the 47p capacitor from C2 to same as C3 (22p).
If i understand Famifan right?

absolutely right!

[Kangsteri]

Found some new, maybe useful information. And i have some final guestions. Apology's for long posts :/ I just want to be thorough with everything.
I stumbled on "Kinamania"s Youtube channel and started to realize the big wonderful world of Famiclones. And cause the Finland is neighbour of Russia, we seem to have lots of these imported clones here. But haven't ever seen Dendy.
It would be helpful if i could understand some Chinese or Russia. And if i could find picture of NTSC Subor motherboard. Best pictures i could find are here: http://dendygames.wordpress.com/category/famiclone/
Many NOACs seem to use the Subor board or very similar. Lifa, Liko etc.

I also found this other Finnish guy who has modded his clone "NTDEC" board. But it has proper chips in it. He also recently made new toploader PAL AV mod.
According to him the regular AV mod wont work on PAL flatscreen TV! The PAL picture is dark and unplayable.
I have just tested this with the original AV and old tube TV. That supports NTSC, RGB etc.. So cant say how this acts yet.
He was testing it and found out that the most important parts was the PNP transistors. Here is the diagram for his PAL AV mod:

So all you need is two 150ohm resistors, original/2SA937 transistor or similar, and magical "GR1815" transistor. He took it from "Playchoice10" motherboard. It acts as amplifier.
The last resistor depends from the flatscreen TV. With other TV it was optimal at 39ohm and other 47ohm. So maybe there could be switch or potentiometer in the output?

The stereo diagram is for internal stereo mod. I'm not sure if i want to do that, yet. There is 3 different points for audio before its starting to mix on the board. But i assume that i had to take the connections from J6, after R4 and pin 46. Maybe this could balance the the possible sound fx issue that i mention later?
And if i understand right, i can take only the extra fx from pin 46? Or do i need to feed power with some resistor to pin 45?

All respect for this information goes to "Mirsku" and his friend "Timux".
Here is the original posts: http://mirsku.blogspot.fi/

On the clone "NTDEC" board he fixed the low cart sound fx issue by adding  100 ohm resistor to before pin 45. That goes to cartridge slot. And adding 10/16V 100uF capacitor before audio output. Capacitor minus towards output. He also mentions that if the original picture is too bright, you can ad 68-100ohm resistor before video output.
On the "NTDEC" board he just replaced jumpers that was next to audio output, with the parts. They are in this picture:


I don't have any original games (with VRC6 chip. Akumajou Densetsu, Madara, Esper Dream 2 or Lagrange Point with VRC7) to test the sound fx chip support. So if anyone has, please test?
I noticed when i tested to use this with RF, the sound was very bad. But sounded clear trough audio connection.

Here is what i have done so far:


I'm pretty sure that i can fit this to fami size catridge, but i think i will use some Steepler style. As a tribute to Dendy stuff
Its just difficult to pick the colour. Black is cool, but i think yellow would be nice too. And more "Dendyish" Best would be the kind witch has small dustcover too. But never seen those live.
So i turned the cartridge slot to make it better and have some room. I also took a little slice from the top of the board. Now i can trim much away sides of the cartridge too. When i tilted the cartridge slot, i added wire from pin 46 and added jumper for sound to pin 45. The board is now little smaller than the cartridge. And if i make it so the connector is out from the "mouth", there will be even extra space.
But maybe i cut some of the cartridge too. Best would be if i could make it "stiletto" style. So it would act little like dustcover too and could be pushed out to connect...
Maybe i add another ground jumper to the under the board too, later. Just to make the connection stronger to other side of the board.
There is the power transformer above, that i made too, from original parts. I need to test does it work, and how much it heats up if it does. And do i need to ad bigger heatsink.

I decided that controller ports will be Famistyle 15pin. And cheapest pushbuttons and switches to fit the "Dendystyle".
Now i just need to order and wait for the parts. If someone knows good place to order single parts, please recommend? I don't want to order 20 crystals from eBay cause i need one. I couldn't find the Playchoice10 "GR1815" transistor. But someone was complaining at deal extreme that he got them..(200pack..):
http://dx.com/p/3-pin-triode-transistor-for-diy-project-black-200-piece-pack-132760 Maybe contacting them would help.
And for the crystal mod. If it works someway, i was planning to make switch for region.

So, if i need two same size capacitors for the crystal, why cant i use the same, or double sized capacitor? Or is it just cause that's the way it sends information?
And does it matter if i use 3 differend capacitors (the originals and the one added), so both crystals are connected to same 22p? Or do i really need 3x 22p and the 47p capacitors?

Thank you again for all quick help and good answers! I will update this soon as i get to testing point. And if anyone has some extra expansion 15pin dustcover (the red one) pm me!

[80sFREAK]

7805 done perfect. It's another thing, where pins/wires have be as short as possible.

No need to split audio in left/right. No need 2SC1815, just pick the signal from from spot,where is 150 Ohm resistor connected to each other and replace 150 Ohm resistor, which connected to 2SA937 transistor with 100 Ohm resistor.  Use decoupling capacitor. Smaller, better, start from 22uF and if you have troubles with syncro, replace it with 33uF or 47uF. Oops, it looks like circuit from my thread...  

If you want to go as shown on your pic, no need to buy 200 2SC1815, 2SC945 or any other genegal low power silicon NPN transistor will do the job. Look around,you might have some dead TV's, radio, tape recorders, AT/ATX power supplies around - use them as donors, just test desoldered parts before use. It will save your time, while something looks like transistors/whatever willcome from China  

About capacitors around XTAL - they actually shift frequency little bit, so your colour subcarrier might be out of TV's tolerance, so you will get b/w picture.

Hint - whatever you doing, do step by step. If something went wrong and you are not sure what/why/... you easily can "undo" and try different way.

[famifan]

It would be helpful if i could understand some Chinese or Russia. And if i could find picture of NTSC Subor motherboard. Best pictures i could find are here: http://dendygames.wordpress.com/category/famiclone/
Many NOACs seem to use the Subor board or very similar. Lifa, Liko etc.

what do you want from the above link?

I also found this other Finnish guy who has modded his clone "NTDEC" board. But it has proper chips in it. He also recently made new toploader PAL AV mod.
According to him the regular AV mod wont work on PAL flatscreen TV! The PAL picture is dark and unplayable.

it's just improper video amplifier. Why don't you use original famiclone circuit for av part?

I couldn't find the Playchoice10 "GR1815" transistor.

use any general purpose low voltage at least 0.25W bipolar transistor with hFE current gain higher then 40. Be sure to choose appropriate type (PNP or NPN). That's all.

So, if i need two same size capacitors for the crystal, why cant i use the same, or double sized capacitor? Or is it just cause that's the way it sends information?
And does it matter if i use 3 differend capacitors (the originals and the one added), so both crystals are connected to same 22p? Or do i really need 3x 22p and the 47p capacitors?

just use any pair of equals capacitors between 12-22p. You'll never notice the differencies.

[Kangsteri]

Thanks again very much to both! All that additional information and alternative components really helps.
That "Mirkku" dude had made the mod by the hard way. Just testing different parts and styles. And hes also not an expert with electronics.
But all that PAL stuff totally made me change my mind on the AV mod. I will do it just like 80sFREAK
And i don't have anything special that i wanted Famifan to translate Thanks anyway. I can manage with Google translator. With the pages that i find. For example i cant find almost anything from internet with name "Subor". But when i search "СЮБОР", its a whole different thing
Its just quite difficult / funny sometimes trying to read the Google translations. Here was something about the topic:
http://gbx.ru/lofiversion/index.php/t82851.html What i could read, they ended up speaking about melting the microchip cover or something?
But back to the point. I was making my shopping list and turns out that i do need to order some family packs and i will get them 100x cheaper, or same price that single parts from Finland...

I was looking this transistor: 2SA937R C Silicon PNP Power Transistor SIP3. I think its made by ROHM

Could it be as good as original or does the "C" mean something? Its 1,50€ + postages 4,20€, but i could pay that easy if its the same transistor.
I also found some supplier who has 20Pcs of the 2SA937R. And they are listed made by Japan. But i couldn't contact the seller and I'm not sure if they are the cheaper style transistors.
If the "C" transistor is good, then will i need to get the ceramic capacitor 0,1uF between GND and +5V?

If its not right one, i suppose i buy 100Pcs "2SC945 C945 50V 0.15A NPN BIPOLAR TRANSISTORS"? 1,40€ with postages
I was also planning to use surface mount resistors (150ohm+100ohm 100Pcs) 2x 1,40€
And surface mount 22uF 10v capacitors (10Pcs) 3€
The regular mini 33uF and 47uF 10V capasitors was cheaper (10Pcs) 2,50€ + 1,50€
Im also planning to get Ferrite Bead Core with Lead 3.5x9mm (50Pcs) 2,15€ + postages 4,65€
For controllers i will use 2x DB15 Male + Female Right Angle PC Mount D-Sub Connectors (couldn't find black ones without angle) all 4x 4,40€
I finally decided the colour too. It will be red and black. Got two fami baseball games for the case. 3,50€
Basic black push buttons (4x N/O + 4x N/C) and switches (10x 6Pin ON/OFF/ON). And rgb leds. But those i will use with other projects too.
Other things was 5 sets DB15 Plastic Hood Cover for D-Sub 15 Pin 2 Rows. Grey, so have to paint them. 3€.
And cheapest 21.47727 MHz Quartz Crystal Resonator, oscillators was the dwarf model. 20x pack 4€
Finally for the sound 20Pcs x 220uF 10V capacitors. 1,40€
Found good page for some led mod resistor calculating: http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/ledcalc.php
Need to think some of them too. But i have to think them later when i know what goes where.

This mod will cost more than the console + games But if i get it working i guess i can do some AV mods to someone else too or something.
And i also have so much other projects that i think the parts wont go to waste.

[Mirsku]

I also found this other Finnish guy who has modded his clone "NTDEC" board. But it has proper chips in it. He also recently made new toploader PAL AV mod.
According to him the regular AV mod wont work on PAL flatscreen TV! The PAL picture is dark and unplayable.

it's just improper video amplifier. Why don't you use original famiclone circuit for av part?

If you are asking from me that is because simple amplifier with one transistor didn't work on toploader when used with flatscreen tv.s here. I tested it on about five different flatscreen televisions and it always gave me too dark picture so I had to add extra transistor to it.

That "famicom chips in ntdec board" thing started when I bought famicom with dead mainboard. After about fifty wires I still wasn't able to find out which lines in the mainboard were damaged so I took out the chips and xtal and used them to replace the ones that were in my pal ntdec. Currently it is only using the original circuitry for video amp and there are vertical lines, but I'm planning to fix that soon. That little audio fix was necessary because the voice effects in games like Akumajo Densetsu were too loud compared to music that was too silent, so with that they are about as balanced as in original famicom.



btw that "Mirkku dude" gave me a good laugh.  


Edited: After reading the whole thread.. I didn't convert ntsc toploader to pal, just simply made it work with pal televisions without too dark picture. It still gives out ntsc signal.

[80sFREAK]

Dark picture=wrong level of signal.

2SA937=2SA1015=2SA733=...

[Kangsteri]

Ha, oops! I'm very sorry about the gender confusion and sloppy shortened translation Mirsku Good that you spotted this so fast.
Didn't check your personal information earlyer at all. Seems like you are very rare kind of a lady. Respect. Nice to have you on the topic too! I was going to contact you about this matter later through the "Nesretro.com".. I couldn't find any contact info from the blog. And i thought it would be better to test this first. Now i can understand better the Scootaloo sticker too Hope it doesn't bother that i posted this up here for international conversation Let me know if you need some free spare components later...

Thank you 80sFREAK again! All your knowledge is priceless. You should add some reasoning and arguments to the AV mod post for stupid people like me. It sometimes takes very much time for me just to find some simple answers with different languages. Just to do some things that i could otherwise do in minutes.
Like that transistor I will get them cheaper 2SA733 ones (50Pcs/1,75€) ) if it really isn't that much of a difference.
I'm almost tempted to do all the different AV mods with different transistors. To do some real objective tests for them with different regions and TVs. Just to get some fair answers and screenshots for all.

[famifan]

With the pages that i find. For example i cant find almost anything from internet with name "Subor". But when i search "СЮБОР", its a whole different thing
Its just quite difficult / funny sometimes trying to read the Google translations. Here was something about the topic:
http://gbx.ru/lofiversion/index.php/t82851.html What i could read, they ended up speaking about melting the microchip cover or something?

actually they just assumed that if there is no jumper settings for NTSC on the board the crystal should be hardwired inside to PAL. You should try to find the PCB with jumper settings. Otherwise there is no chance to change the settings.

I was looking this transistor: 2SA937R C Silicon PNP Power Transistor SIP3. I think its made by ROHM

Could it be as good as original or does the "C" mean something? Its 1,50€ + postages 4,20€, but i could pay that easy if its the same transistor.
I also found some supplier who has 20Pcs of the 2SA937R. And they are listed made by Japan. But i couldn't contact the seller and I'm not sure if they are the cheaper style transistors.
If the "C" transistor is good, then will i need to get the ceramic capacitor 0,1uF between GND and +5V?

If its not right one, i suppose i buy 100Pcs "2SC945 C945 50V 0.15A NPN BIPOLAR TRANSISTORS"? 1,40€ with postages
I was also planning to use surface mount resistors (150ohm+100ohm 100Pcs) 2x 1,40€
And surface mount 22uF 10v capacitors (10Pcs) 3€
The regular mini 33uF and 47uF 10V capasitors was cheaper (10Pcs) 2,50€ + 1,50€
Im also planning to get Ferrite Bead Core with Lead 3.5x9mm (50Pcs) 2,15€ + postages 4,65€
For controllers i will use 2x DB15 Male + Female Right Angle PC Mount D-Sub Connectors (couldn't find black ones without angle) all 4x 4,40€
I finally decided the colour too. It will be red and black. Got two fami baseball games for the case. 3,50€
Basic black push buttons (4x N/O + 4x N/C) and switches (10x 6Pin ON/OFF/ON). And rgb leds. But those i will use with other projects too.
Other things was 5 sets DB15 Plastic Hood Cover for D-Sub 15 Pin 2 Rows. Grey, so have to paint them. 3€.
And cheapest 21.47727 MHz Quartz Crystal Resonator, oscillators was the dwarf model. 20x pack 4€
Finally for the sound 20Pcs x 220uF 10V capacitors. 1,40€
Found good page for some led mod resistor calculating: http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/ledcalc.php
Need to think some of them too. But i have to think them later when i know what goes where.

OMG. Don't you have any local electronic parts retail shop?
i can send you some truly vintage КТ316 КТ361 from 80s-90s for free, just pay shipping ^_^

them has the same shape as famicom's one, but i'm not sure about the pin-out

[Kangsteri]

I live in small village and here is no any electronics retail shop :/ And even the "best" Finnish online shop has very poor selection of parts.
Price for single transistor there is about 0,70-1,20€. And hate to bring the politics in to discussion, but since our government started to privatise everything. One of the first being post office. After that, all prices have went insane.
Shipping and handling fees are usually about 7-10€. Even just for one part! So I'm not going to get anything from Finland. We also have these things called electrick device recycle centers. Many people here who play more with electronics, say that they are best places to get lots of free parts. But i don't want to carry piles of junk devices to my home, just to get some component.

I think I'm going to get that 2SA937R C because its mentioned in several places that 2SA937R transistor has superb amplifying quality compared to others.

Here is some usefull document about other NOACs on Benheck forums: http://www.box.net/shared/hpl63bh0js (The Definitive NOAC pinout/information document! - By "TheOnlyOneHeFears") It shows again another AV mod, used by NOACs:

It also claims that "Generally, the raw video signal in NOACs, is strong enough to be playable. However, if you do want to amplify it, you will need to construct a booster..."

I was tying to find also a picture of NTSC NOAC. And there was this i think Italian guy, who claims that region mod worked just by changing the crystal: http://www.elotrolado.net/hilo_convertir-noac-pal-a-ntsc_1580626
That topic also shows on page 2, that there is some other NOACs with region jumpers. I found one other mention on some forum that the older NOACs might be able to support both regions. Without jumpers.

But i also find from these that Famifan really knows something. There was one 21 Mhz that uses 2x 22p capacitors.
On that Italian guys board it only shows the other capacitor but its 30p. And there is one that uses 2x 33p capacitors.
I really don't mind even if the NTSC crystal doesn't work. I just rather test it than speculate how it might work and leave it bothering me

[famifan]

I think I'm going to get that 2SA937R C because its mentioned in several places that 2SA937R transistor has superb amplifying quality compared to others.

well, the amplifier in video curcuit is just the voltage follower with level shifter. No need for super amplifying thing. Just be sure that the its unity gain bandwidth is 10-20x more than actual signal's spectrum width

But i also find from these that Famifan really knows something. There was one 21 Mhz that uses 2x 22p capacitors.
On that Italian guys board it only shows the other capacitor but its 30p. And there is one that uses 2x 33p capacitors.
I really don't mind even if the NTSC crystal doesn't work. I just rather test it than speculate how it might work and leave it bothering me

usually used 12-22p capacitors (as typical manufacturer rated values). The bigger frequency usually requires the bigger capacitor. However it will work with 33p or 40p capacitors as well. It depends on the actual PCB layout, capacitance of IC's pins and built-in oscillator circuit and the crystal resonator itself.

[prince tomato]

sorry for butting in like this,
but i'm toying around with some Subor D29's right now,
and i'm curious about how that glob-top NOAC shielding works.
if i put adhesive foil over the NOAC chip, it shouldn't touch any of the solder points around it right?
so a small patch would do?
and how do i connect it to ground, can i just run a wire from the foil to one of the rca-grounds?
i'm a total noob at this, so any help will be much appreciated,
please pm me if you have pics or other hints on this.